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Tracking and discussing the current events
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 12:51
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Hurls petrol bomb.
Turns off browser and returns to work.
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Water cannons from Northern Ireland are on stand-by to be sent to England at 24 hours notice, Prime Minister David Cameron has said quoted in the DT.
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It's all politics - the Police will decide what kit they need and when to deploy, ultimately as far as Policing is cocncerned Cameron can't order diddly squat....-
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Cameron has water cannons on the brain.
Maybe they had some of those small ones next to the pool when he was on holiday. He is so annoyed about having to finally come home, that he wants to bring a little bit of the holiday back with him.
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>> Cameron has water cannons on the brain.
They won't work anyway. Too big and cumbersome.
Far better to issue the police with super soakers instead.
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>> Water cannons from Northern Ireland are on stand-by to be sent to England at 24
>> hours notice, Prime Minister David Cameron has said quoted in the DT.
>>
24 hours?
That will be a little late, don't you think?
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If the PSNI need them on standby they will stay there. The PNSI face opponents and risks that the mainland police could not even contemplate, let alone trained to deal with,
Why do you think NI is the only place that's got them? and Rubber bullets.
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Robber billets and water connon and gons and machane gons and meeace (or tear gos).
They're wall teeled op.
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"if ones car gets torched can you claim on the insurance? or do you have to sue the police for failure to protect peoples property
is it officially a riot situation or does the police have to read the riot act out?
the insurance companies would rather go to hell and back rather than pay out wouldnt they?"
Your car insurance will cover you against the risks of Riot and Civil commotion as will your householders insurance and commercial fire insurance policy. if you have no insurance or are underinsured you may be able to claim against the police under the Riot (Compensation act 1886). Similarly Insurers can recover any claims that they make
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/49-50/38/contents
Of course the government would like this not to be deemed a riot and it looks like they intend to change the law for the future
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14475721
But it all depends whether the disruption met the following criteria;
twelve or more persons
present together
used or threatened unlawful violence
for a common purpose; and that
the conduct of them (taken together)
was such as to cause
a person of reasonable firmness
present at the scene
to fear for his personal safety
www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_order_offences/#Riot
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Posted this in v4 but wanted to add:
tinyurl.com/438m4hj
The police need to be whiter than white! It is actions like this that contribute to mistrust of the police.
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Very few people here seem interested in experience-based data, preferring tabloid views and simplistic hardnosed solutions.
But here, for the few who are interested, are two brief memories of the 1976 carnival, the first one at which trouble was started by silly police officiousness. A friend's car was parked a few streets down Ladbroke Grove from our house, where she was based for the day. After the trouble started a car was set on fire. It was the next car to hers, and she happened to be out in the street and able to see it. Her first instinct was to go and move it, but it was surrounded by semi-rioting youths. That wouldn't really have put her off though. What did was her knowledge that many Jews of her parents' generation had lost their lives by hanging on in Germany and its growing Nazi empire to try to salvage their property. Her car was all right in the end.
A late friend of mine, a middle-aged Jamaican with natural authority and a very fine fellow, saw a bunch of kids kicking the bejasus out of a young copper they had on the ground. He charged in, shoved the yobbos back and saved the copper. He was very indignant about their behaviour.
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>> Posted this in v4 but wanted to add:
>>
>>
>> tinyurl.com/438m4hj
>>
>> The police need to be whiter than white! It is actions like this that contribute
>> to mistrust of the police.
There is always going to be collateral damage, mistakes are easily made by the forces on the ground in the heat of battle. At the end of the day if you are there or thereabouts when its all going down you can end up involved.
Thats why its not good for vigilantes to be there, makes it hard for the old bill to identify friend and foe,
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Well if the police are too stretched to provide assistance or a presence, to watch the criminality rather than stop it in some cases, self-help is the only way.
The Turkish community managed it and well done to them. tinyurl.com/3d3o9st
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>> Well if the police are too stretched to provide assistance or a presence, to watch
>> the criminality rather than stop it in some cases, self-help is the only way.
That may well be true, and may well work, but they shouldn't complain if some of the wrong heads get cracked with a baton. Or run over and killed.
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The atmosphere in Manchester seemed normal this morning.
After attending to an accident in Eccles to one of our Priuses ?...I was asked to do a check of all our city centre cars to see if any were damaged.
I didn't see any results of the riot but that's understandable as most of it took place in pedestrianised areas. There were quite a few folk walking from the rail station with brushes and other gear. The Mancunians have pulled together to clean up today.
Coming home on the tram this evening after delivering a car, there was a fairly discreet police presence in Piccadilly, all in yellow and traditional helmets. I suspect the armoured lads were out of view nearby.
I don't think it'll kick off tonight, they won't want to get their new stolen trainers wet !
Courts crackdown ? Don't make me larf. Youth who stole 2 T shirts got 1 day...which he'd already served. How is that an example to others ? He's still a scum looter !
Ted
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I thought I was seeing things when I took a delivery to a quayside hotel in Fishguard this morning, a fully liveried cop van with Garda emblazoned all over it. I knew the police needed help, but...
Turned out they had rowed across the Irish Sea the previous day on some sponsored charity thing and were staying overnight. Later on I saw them heading for the ferry (someone said they had been drinking in the rugby club till 3am, I trust the driver was on orange juice).
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Following some stuff on Twitter....the "Heddlu" liveried vans are causing quite a stir in the smoke - some cracking tweets about them...
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They're rioting quite politely around here, apparently they've looted Argos in Bangor and are as we speak waiting patiently at Collection Point A
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>> Following some stuff on Twitter....the "Heddlu" liveried vans are causing quite a stir in the
>> smoke - some cracking tweets about them...
>> 0
I hadn't thought of that. Very few people in England will have a clue what that means.
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That's part of the humour on Twitter !
One quote
"Royston Martis
Great quote from Welsh officer in London. Really sums up what lots are saying 'Humbled by public reception of us in London - never seen it before and hope it stays like this. We do this for you folks.'"
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The lancs police in surrey are refusing to go home.
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Don't worry Z, I will be in London this weekend, I will definitely be going home.
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Watch those red lights ON, you know the way we drive round here.
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I will avoid Mitsubishi Zeros like the plague.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPdQCuc7CZo
Warning this clip may amuse some people. Alexi Bailey walks into lampost after leaving Court...(46 seconds into the clip)
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Insurance assessors say there could have been over £40 worth of damage done in Salford !
Ted
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It's a quiet night here as usual in Bury St Edmunds; my wife just drove past 2 coppers setting up their 30mph speed check at 10pm - I suppose they've got to do something to stay awake.
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Just read zippy's riots list, disappointed to see Luton 'only' gets two mentions, I'm sure there was a riot in 1981 as well.
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>>>Just read zippy's riots list, disappointed to see Luton 'only' gets two mentions, I'm sure there was a riot in 1981 as well.
May have missed one or two. The old memory isn't what it once was and despite protestations to the contrary from my offspring, I was not in Oxford in 1355!
;-)
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 23:20
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>>disappointed to see Luton 'only' gets two mentions
Don't forget 1919: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton_Town_Hall
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>> >>disappointed to see Luton 'only' gets two mentions
>>
>> Don't forget 1919: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton_Town_Hall
>>
Yep, I'd checked that was on the list BT, IIRC the last reading of the riot act in England, so I was told anyway.
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>> It's a quiet night here as usual in Bury St Edmunds;
'Twas ever thus...
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Twas ever thus...
Massive riots in 1327 when the town people attacked the monastery.
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Thats some job you have Ted, sounds ideal for the semi retired!
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>> There is always going to be collateral damage, mistakes are easily made by the forces
>> on the ground in the heat of battle.
That was a group of coppers pulling a kid off a bike, and one of them putting the boot in by the look of it.
>> Thats why its not good for vigilantes to be there, makes it hard for the
>> old bill to identify friend and foe
Sadly the police are at this stage either unwilling or unable to prevent the attacks on property. While there is an apparent vacuum people will want to get out in the safety of numbers to counter the frankly terrifying prospect of lawlessness on theior doorsteps. The partner of a chap I spoke to today was trapped last evening in their flat in Manchester while youths rampaged below - very frightening I should think, and a ready catalyst for community action.
Unfortunately, if vigilantism catches on, it will simply become a focus for right wing activists and we could end up with a different kind of battle on the streets - I have just seen on Newsnight an EDL member saying they had come along to "organise" the resistance.
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>> >> There is always going to be collateral damage, mistakes are easily made by the
>> forces
>> >> on the ground in the heat of battle.
>>
>> That was a group of coppers pulling a kid off a bike, and one of
>> them putting the boot in by the look of it.
As I said, and the bit you missed out, if you are there its easy to get dragged in. If there is stuff going down, get out of it. If you dont you are liable to get your head cracked - by either party.
Shouldnt be there, tough do do.
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Sadly there was nco context to the film clip I.e. What happened before and afterwards nor was there any audio of what was said. Clearly people will seebwhat they want and their particular prejudice will fill in the blanks, both pro and anti police alike
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Well, looks like all the fuss and nonsense is over, or maybe they are just having a lie in today.
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Step-son went into Manchester with friends with brushes etc today to help clean up. He met up with Ed Miliband.... and called him Dave ;-) When he came around here later on he initially said he'd just seen Ed Miliband.... then showed us the photo on his iPhone of him standing with 'Dave'.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 23:15
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Bit of a Trigger moment !
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Exactly what I thought - wife was laughing a lot and then she told me he'd kept calling him 'Dave'. I'd not call his brother Dave either - he's David.
Glad to see Manchester and Salford councils will try to evict tenants if they identify any as involved in last nights disturbances:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14478498
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 10 Aug 11 at 23:22
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Looks like its all over for the most part now.
All thats left is an inquiry which concludes the police were wrong in some way as is always the case when they do anything involving actually confronting criminals.
Nice to see the 'poverty stricken' postman, school worker, lifeguard, hairdresser etc etc in court already. Being in poverty has never been so well paid clearly, no wonder they went looting. Ill get my collection tin...
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>> Looks like its all over for the most part now.
>>
>> All thats left is an inquiry which concludes the police were wrong in some way
They were. They lost control on Saturday night, and didnt recover it on Sunday. The why needs to be established.
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>> They were. They lost control on Saturday night, and didnt recover it on Sunday. The why needs to be established.
Yes.
Then they need properly trained and equipped riot coppers in case the little toerags do it again.
Water cannon are simply a useless white elephant in London. Forget them. Robber billets.... I wouldn't trust the Met with those the way they've been lately. They can kill.
Tear gas grenades fired from those launchers. They will clear away the sightseers and let the dog see the rabbit.
Athletic officers, no pie-guzzling jumbos, fit. Non lethal billies, flameproof overalls, body armour, brick-proof helmets, gas mask, handcuffs and stuff. Fire the gas, go hell for leather after the rioters. That'd learn'em.
Of course it might force them to evolve a bit too. But there would be fewer the more the risk of being caught or beaten up escalated.
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Tear gas may have worked in '68 AC, people now have easy access to
tinyurl.com/3rn29zr - links to ebay
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Aug 11 at 12:41
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Ed Miliband sounds more like Blair than Blair.
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>> Well, looks like all the fuss and nonsense is over, or maybe they are just having a lie in today
PC Rain is on patrol tonight, the most effective officer on the force.
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>>Where did you get that photo from? Vol 3.
Crocks. A family member.
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They've started in Edinburgh now too!!!!
youtu.be/EW0356brnrE
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>> in Edinburgh now too!!!!
Run for your lives! It's the Black Campbells!
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Tuesday evening, 6pm, Oxford St two tourists approached a pair of friendly policemen to ask the way to somewhere. Response in very broad Scouse "sorry, we're not from round here".
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t.co/XWHuNwQ
Links to Telegraph.
Thoughts from the "it's all the fault of immigration" brigade?
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Maybe you have misjudged them on their stance. It would seem so.
Its a good point made though, community does matter, shared values matter aswell, they bind people in a common cause.
Unfortunatly, the media would have us believe that any self-supporting group of people who arent from an ethnic minority must be some extension of the BNP/EDL, such is the ultra sensitivity about being white in this country.
Its actually not true that in the 'native' ( as the Graph calls it ) community that there isnt unity.
In the small village my parents live in, they have street parties, they have charity bbqs, everyone knows everyone else, local tradesmen get work from neighbours - it does actually exist in some places, but we seem to have convinced ourselves that its somehow shameful.
The other day, an elderly couple were unloading some heavy tables for an event at the chapel. Clearly struggling, they called over two teenage boys walking past, who lept to their aid. They then went back to litter picking. It does exist, but how you could expand that past the village community model I dont know.
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>> Thoughts from the "it's all the fault of immigration" brigade?
>>
I don't fall into that category, it's the fault of idiot non parents and idiots who elected idiots who promised the earth for free and paid successive generations of lazy ne'r do wells to do nothing whilst blaming everyone else for their lacking, however...
A group of white, especially English blokes standing guard over their areas would be raving nazis (look here for those who would accuse), racists, fascists, bnp or edl odious scum...who will no doubt end up taking the brunt of the blame anyway.
If they were dfensively armed like the admirable Turks and Sikh's they'd find themselves down the nick for carrying offensive weapons in short order.
I admire the people who went out to defend their areas, but if whitey did it there'd be hell to pay.
That should be enough to get the usual suspects in patronising 'you couldn't possibly know but i'm an expert' flow.
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twitpic.com/6448nj
A photo doing the rounds on Twitter.
The only argument I have with your point GB is the use of the term "English" - from personal experience members of the Seikh community, for example, view themselves as English as anyone.
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>> The only argument I have with your point GB is the use of the term
>> "English"
Fair comment, difficult to know quite what term to use for the only group likely to be vilified for doing the right thing.
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Perhaps that group doesn't really exist then, GB? Perhaps it isn't persecuted?
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Which group doesn't exist AV, which group have i said is persecuted?
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Erm......
"difficult to know quite what term to use for the only group likely to be vilified for doing the right thing"
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>> "difficult to know quite what term to use for the only group likely to be
>> vilified for doing the right thing"
>>
If you check the press, you'll find that the group that tried to protect Eltham, mainly but not exclusively white, was immediately tarred with being EDL led and organised....
interesting one liner in the Telegraph report otherwise slating them though
''Local police denied the group were comprised of EDL members.''
The rest of the report markedly different to the reports of heroic minorites preparing to defend their own areas.
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>> If you check the press, you'll find that the group that tried to protect Eltham,
>> mainly but not exclusively white, was immediately tarred with being EDL led and organised....
>>
>> interesting one liner in the Telegraph report otherwise slating them though
>>
>> ''Local police denied the group were comprised of EDL members.''
>>
>> The rest of the report markedly different to the reports of heroic minorites preparing to
>> defend their own areas.
The police commander on the spot said, on tv this morning about the "Eltham Heroes", "having crowds of men shouting football chants is not helpful to public order"
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>> The police commander on the spot said, on tv this morning about the "Eltham Heroes",
>> "having crowds of men shouting football chants is not helpful to public order"
>>
Presumably having crowds of Sikh's complete with swords is though.
By the way in case you are wondering, had the roiters/thieves/general layabout scum tackled the well armed Sikh's and come out of it severaly wounded i'd have been the first to congratulate them....not likely to happen though, given the number of steady chaps ready to defend their homes it would likely have been a one to one, layabout scum don't do honour.
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>> >> The police commander on the spot said, on tv this morning about the "Eltham
>> Heroes",
>> >> "having crowds of men shouting football chants is not helpful to public order"
>> >>
>>
>> Presumably having crowds of Sikh's complete with swords is though.
And there you have the problem in a nutshell.. You expect the old bill to be coming in hard and fast to knock the riot down. What the police need is a defined battlefield, not one cluttered up with White EDL counter hooligans, or Sikhs armed to the teeth with swords and kirpans. If you are wading into a crowd to crack heads you haven't got time to check loyalties or identities. Police get hurt that way.
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>> >> If you are wading into a crowd
>> to crack heads you haven't got time to check loyalties or identities. Police get hurt
>> that way.
>>
>>
>>
Trouble is: on the whole the police were on the sidelines watching...
The police I realise are stretched. But if the law will not protect your property, then the contract between law abiding people and the state - we give up arms, you protect us - looks rather one sided.
If this had been the US,....
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Policing in this country is by consent. The numbers of cops reflects this. A typical London Borough, with a population of say 270,000 people, would probably have between 18 - 22 cops on duty at any given time to cover for calls from the public.
In the counties, there are some exceptionally low numbers in some towns...very, very low.......which is why for the usual day to day stuff, every day of the week, they sometimes run out of people.
The general public have no idea of this, of course...and rightly moan when there's a delay...but the people at the sharp end cannot provide what they don't have
..and....there's no point blaming the police managers for not providing enough staff at the sharp end...because they are managed very closely nowadays...and have huge competing demands elsewhere.
There are not enough police officers to do all the work expected of them, is the simple point to be made, so difficult decisions have to be made at times on who doesn't get a response...if you get your garden shed broken into or you have the same with your car, you'll get a crime number, but that's that..nothing else will be done about it, not in London anyway, there is no one to deal with it.
Policing is expensive, so it's not going to change..if anything with the budget cuts set in place it'll get noticeably worse first.
When something happens like the riot in Tottenham, there will be extra staff to be called upon...but in the big scheme of things, not that many...and Public Order tactics have to take account of the principle of not over extending your tactics, otherwise you'll be in deep, deep doo-doo. The other thing is Public Order training is for a significant minority of police officers and is expensive (say 50 staff out of 800). Unless you do the training you don't get the protective kit...which is why when a retail park is looted in a riot, you've got officers who don't respond to it...you either send enough of the riot trained ones with protective kit..or send no one and wait until you do have enough riot trained ones, otherwise the untrained ones will be injured and off work for ages and/or the vehicle trashed and off the road and you've only got so many..there's no big warehouse full of replacements, you'll need it for tomorrow, etc..
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There's another point to be made as well. I'm a firm believer in 'you reap what you sow'.
If you take the Ian Tomlinson death (without going in to too much detail as there will be trial at some point)...the basics about that case were:
- A troubled man with a history of acute alcoholism, who was pushed by a Police Sergeant in the middle of a public order situation, he fell to the ground and died.
Apart from the in/outs of his health, his sobriety and/or mindset (willingness to do as he is told..), is it appropriate for a police officer to push someone.
'Yes', according to the Public Order manual, it's an accepted robust tactic, it's what they are taught to do. 'No' according to the CPS, it was an assault.
So..the next time that Sergeant's colleagues police a riot, what are they to do? If you've got any sense as a riot trained police officer, you'll have in the back of your mind...do I want to be prosecuted for assault, lose my livelihood, maybe go to prison, leave my family in the lurch, etc, etc....yet you've got a job to do and should be doing it to the best of your ability. The media and the average armchair critic with the benefit of hindsight then fuel it..and on it goes.
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Two excellent posts IMO Westpig. I wonder how many of the 16,000 on duty on Monday were trained and kitted out for public disorder? From your 50 out of 800 example, probably no more than 1,000?
And to train/kit more for a situation that rarely happens is a waste. Staff will move on, retire, etc. Kit will need to be replaced. It's a bit like the calls for more snow ploughs when we usually don't need them.
I suppose if we had riots more often the budget would reflect this and more would be trained and available to deal with it.
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Dom Noonan or what ever he calls himself now (Fatloy Fattoy or something) was arrested last night and is being interviewed by detectives about his involvement in the riots.
For those that don't know his gang controlled security on club doors in the 1980's and 90's and where alleged to have been involved in protection rackets etc in Manchester.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 11 Aug 11 at 18:18
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Just out of sheer curiosity, how many armed forces members COULD the government call upon to restore order?
It saddens me that we have so few police officers about and indeed many public services which do very much need numbers to do the job effectively.
Unfortunately I think its a systemic problem which starts at the very top of government where money is frankly wasted lavishly on rather dubious causes/projects while neglecting the core needs of the country like policing and healthcare.
Its always been my principle that you fix the house before filling it with trinkets and im afraid the roof is leaking and we spend the money on scented candles.
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I knew of someone who dealt with door security in the 90s - we had to use them at the time as we needed door safe people. Even though they would mostly be thugs. I got on okay with them though. Not the Noonan family though.... don't think so anyway. The 'manager' of the team I knew drank in the Rampant Lion.
it was a lot of the family in the business though - I stopped younger brother letting people in and stood up to him. He threatened to knife me and went to drab something from inside his jacket. I got him to the doors and another brother took 'care' of him. He punched him and broke his hand! I did look over my shoulder for a bit after that.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 11 Aug 11 at 18:52
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>> Dom Noonan or what ever he calls himself now (Fatloy Fattoy or something) was arrested last night and is being interviewed by detectives about his involvement in the riots.
My paper strongly implied that he was standing in the street running a mass thieving enterprise carried out by those enfeoffed to his barony.
A large-scale toerag that Manchester can be proud of Rattolo. Walk tall my son!
Ü:o}
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Thoughtful posts Westpig, informative and as usual restrained in tone. It must be annoying sometimes for you to see us rabbiting ignorantly about the police. And it's true that Ian Tomlinson's internal fragility may not have been obvious to the police in the heat of the moment, with an element of the G8 demonstrators behaving very badly and breaking things.
One has to take the point too about the constraints, largely political and changeable one assumes, under which old bill always has to work.
However there does seem to be a problem of something or other in the upper reaches of the police. Perhaps a reform of methods or hierarchy is needed, or perhaps the commanders and their bosses just need to feel that the home office will back them when they are in the right, or doing their best. One can't tell for sure from outside. But there's a problem there, often apparent when anything goes wrong.
It would be interesting to know what you think of the proposal to bring in an American police chief with a proven track record against crime to run the Met. My instinctive response is that it's a poor idea, the countries are very different and so are their policing styles, and there must surely be people here who would be better. But without a new broom of some sort, the tangled situation that seems to paralyse old bill at certain moments will just become more tangled as the lawyers, politicos and tabloid media of left and right do their thing.
It may not be expedient for you to sound off on any of that, but it might be interesting if you did.
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>> It may not be expedient for you to sound off on any of that, but
>> it might be interesting if you did.
>>
I will when I retire....and in the big scheme of things, you won't have that long to wait.
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Direclty elected police commissioners (as opposed to The Police Commissioner) are IMO a truly awful idea. The thought that the next political knee jerk is going to direct how policing is achieved is a thoroughly backward step. Chief Constables used to have complete autonomy...and IMO that's good, more chance of avoiding political interference and only worrying about next week's figures, to the detriment of long term planning.
I don't think the American police chief was a good idea...not because he wasn't or isn't capable..but because culturally we are totally different countries e.g. gun ownership. He would have to not only get his head around the cultural differences, but also the totally different laws. There is a side of me though, that would like to see a no nonsense top cop who doesn't even understand political correctness, let alone willing to comply with it.
I also don't think it's a good idea to have direct entry senior officers like the military have. Bright high flying candidates fly through the ranks anyway,there's no shortage of them..so why not have to start at the bottom and work up, there's more chance of them actually knowing what it's like at the coal face..and in this game, that is important (although some forget it remarkably quickly).
The last Commissioner should not have resigned, he was a good man and it is my belief the judicial enquiry will show so. IMO it is shameful that the politicians let him go, they should have refused his resignation.
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Here here! Anyone elected to their post will always have an eye on the next election and will sway to voters opinion, even if in the long term that opinion is known to be wrong.
The last commissioner should not have resigned. He did nothing wrong, save employ someone who later turned out to be a wrong-un. Now unless he is issued with a crystal ball......!?
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>> In the counties, there are some exceptionally low numbers in some towns...very, very low.......which is
>> why for the usual day to day stuff, every day of the week, they sometimes
>> run out of people.
>
Surrey Police have 1,890 officers, Surrey has a population of 1,113,100. Assuming you have a 1/3rd of your officers on duty at one time, that's 1 copper per 1767 people. Surrey's clear up rate is the worse of all 43 forces.
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That number comes down to an even greater ratio with backroom staff, abstractions through leave, sickness and training, you'd struggle to get a 1/3rd out on actual patrol/responding to calls...
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You have absolutely nowhere near a third of officers patrolling.
One emergency officer post takes 6 or 7 people to fill. One early shift, one late, one night, two rest day (if 5 week pattern), one or two training/court/sick/holiday etc.
Then there's the plethora of other roles needed nowadays.
For an Operational Command Unit that covers response policing, theres: CID main office; crime squad; Crime Desk (crime reports); custody area; Ops/Events office; Duties Office; telephone reporting unit; Case Progression Unit; Domestic Violence Unit; tasking team, Safer Neighbourhoods; Child abuse;Intelligence Unit and a load more....
...and I haven't even touched the Specialist Units that have their own commands e.g. Traffic; Special Branch; Robbery Squad; Murder; Terrorism; Specialist Searching; Underwater Unit; River Police; Air Support; Fraud; Trident (black on black serious crime); etc, etc, etc
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Hmm, Heddlu Gogledd Cymru (North Wales Police) have 1500 Officers for a population of 678,500, assuming my 1/3 on duty ratio that's one copper per 1357. The North Wales clear up rate is much better than the Surrey one.
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That's because Brunstrom was a very powerful lobbiest and north Wales Council Tax payers pay the highest Police precept in Wales. Rural forces have traditionally enjoyed better clear up rates (Dyfed Powys had the best in the UK - but they seriously cooked the books and were caught with their paws in the cookie jar so to speak). There is a strong argument for all Wales Policing to come under the Welsh Government and thereby avoiding this elected commissioner idiocy, mind you there are some oddballs on the Authority up here, one has just been before a tribunal at vast public expense. He is an Anglesey councillor (who are all currently suspended) so not much of a surprise.
Whatever Brunstrom's reputation nationally and amongst the chattering classes, he led his people well and there was a lot of support amongst the locals for him.
Last edited by: R.P. on Thu 11 Aug 11 at 19:39
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Ok Using Westpigs ratio of 6 it goes like this
Surrey has 1 copper on duty per 3534 people
Heddlu Gogledd Cymru has 1 copper per 2714 people
The Met has 1 copper per 1371 people.
In New York the NYPD has 34500 officers for a population of 8.2 million. Using the ratio of 6 thats
1 copper per 1426 people.
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It's not just about number of police though, its overall budget needs to be taken in to consideration.
Also, the NYPD have guns.
I also suspect that a lot of crimes don't even get investigated in NY!
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"In areas like mine, we know that 59% of black Caribbean children are looked after by a lone parent. There is none of the basic starting presumption of two adults who want to start a family, raise children together, love them, nourish them and lead them to full independence. The parents are not married and the child has come, frankly, out of casual sex; the father isn't present, and isn't expected to be. There aren't the networks of extended families to make up for it. We are seeing huge consequences of the lack of male role models in young men's lives," he said. "There are virtually no male teachers in primary schools."
Quote from David Lammy - Labour MP for Tottenham.
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....and this is even scarier:- tinyurl.com/3jgnqsq
(Leads to a Spectator article.)
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>> It's not just about number of police though, its overall budget needs to be taken
>> in to consideration.
NYPD Budget $3.9 Billion
The Met Budget £4.1 billion.
>> Also, the NYPD have guns.
So do the customers.
>>
>> I also suspect that a lot of crimes don't even get investigated in NY!
Ditto London.
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>> NYPD Budget $3.9 Billion
>> The Met Budget £4.1 billion.
>>
People "discussing" this subject on here don't wish to be educated about facts. Especially true of the ones who are the closet racists. They like to remain blinkered.
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very upset now. (please don't use the f word)
All my mates took time of work to go to this one off punk/reggae/ska night but several of them decided it wasn't save. Three out of twelve did turn up, funnily enough every one of us had family that worked for the police so we knew it was safe.
Got into town more cops than people, had a work with the cops, they said they had never known anything like it, people kept going up to them saying how good they where and they have their support etc. Apparently they have also managed to get a load of people to agree that cutting back on police is a bad idea, and they reckon the riots will force the government to abandon the cuts on cop numbers.
You could tell the cops where quite humbled when we spoke to them but I think all the hours on the duty all they had was people going up to them telling them how good they where, something most cops would never have experienced.
One of the cops I spoke to said he had been in the force for 20 years and has never experienced anything like the last couple of days in terms of public support.
I know a lot of my friends including myself who had minor issues with the police have see what they have had to content with and can only have respect. As for the cop that beat up the kid, if the gets the place I will personally protest in support for the police.
RJ I am guessing without mentioning names, the guy you had dealings with might have been a guy called Paul (won't mention his surname) who ran Salford during the 80's and 90's, he is still very active. Interestingly tonight I was talking to people who run the venues I tend to visit a lot, said I don't use security companies for the very reason they don't want to be associated with the gangsters, they just employ their own security staff. Although some of them are still thugs.
I am very glad I live in a part of Manchester where gang live doesn't really exist, and 95% of people were would be against the gansgers, where as some estates the gangster would have all the support.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 09:14
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Why so, er, extremely upset Ratto? Didn't the ska happen? Or did you spend so long congratulating the knackered fuzz that you missed it?
I trust you managed a pint or two at least.
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I know the people that run the business well, all three of their venues have been dead since the riots and have lost a fortune. Taxi drivers are dead etc, I run a business in a Manchester so it will have a knock on effect.
I did have several beers, but instead of dancing with 100 people, I didn't dance and just chatted to a few mates.
I am angry for the loss of business more than anything, shops have smashed class and loss of stock, but the real consequences are far deeper than that.
If the same thing has happened in parts of London, Birmingham, Liverpool etc then effect on the country in loss tax revenue could be huge.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 03:08
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I wonder who will be paying the ultimate price for all this damage, insurance claims etc?
The benefits claimed by the peretrators?
Would it be you and me, the british taxpayer again?
Pat
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>> the british taxpayer again?
Who else? We won't get much joy out of the Greek taxpayer.
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>> >> the british taxpayer again?
>>
>> Who else? We won't get much joy out of the Greek taxpayer.
>>
No, but the Greek taxpayer is getting much joy out of the British taxpayer!
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A priceless quote in today's Daily Mail.
District Judge to young rioter...
"Nobody forced you to get drunk an pick up a violin...."
Imagination has been running riot.....
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I wish it was a simple as taking the benefits of these scum but the we can't do that because then they will just commit more crime.
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I do wonder, perhaps more in hope than expectation, that these events have highlighted many different issues in a very visable way.
I have first hand experience dealing with badly behaved young teens and they can be dealt with and managed effectively, but we dont yet have the stomach to reclaim the notion of authority over minors - its actually not that difficult if you grow a pair and put the notion of hugs a way behind structure and fear of reprisal.
Im sure something will change within policing and also community spirit has been brought to the front of peoples minds, far more effectively than the 'Big Society' rubbish.
Could yet be an upside.
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It's interesting that if there is a Noonan linked to Manchester looting that we was related to Mark Duggan.
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Anyone see Question Time last night?
They could have saved a lot of money and just posted a link to these discussions!
Though I don't know which one of the contributors here was the woman in the bright clothing....... :)
Any takers for Prescott?
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Two headlines currently running on Teletext
Police angered by riot criticism - re numbers of officers deployed
Met boss admits riot shortcomings - also re numbers deployed.
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Yes I saw Question Time.
Please Lord kick out Cameron and get David Davis in there, atleast he can relate to normal people and somehow, whether or not he intends to, actually speaks with conviction.
I did titter when that girl in the audience sarcastically asks whether he has ever experienced council houses - oops, he has love, she didnt see that one coming, it was priceless, stuck up bit of fluff she was.
Camila? Cant take her seriously and not because she looks like a fruit salad either.
Sentamu, dont always agree with him but his heart is in the right place.
Prescott? A fat, foolish man who thinks shouting 'bankers' will get him a cheap pop from the audience. He lives a very nice life and is a hypocrite of the highest order - with many great MPs in the Labour party, why they sent him godness only knows, poor call.
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Most places Prescott goes he is useful as the lowest common denominator of charm, tact and considered thinking.
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This is well worth reading and digesting, particularly the parallel between the looters and the approved looting referred to.
thesnowolf.com/2011/08/a-few-thoughts.html
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Just watched a Interview on the news with 3 of the rioters/looters in London
They where all masked up
Interview "do you not feel bad for what you have done?"
Person* 3 "No it don't bother me innit"
Interviewer. "Do you not have trouble sleeping at night?"
Person* 1 "No because I'm watching my nice new plasma that I looted innit"
Interviewer "but what about the people that work hard in the business around here to pay for these items, do you not think that they go the right way about it"?
Person* 2 "Well I had to beg my mum for shoes so I can go round the west end and hand out my CV, but no-one is giving us jobs - so what are we supposed to do"
It was something along those lines
* I use the term person in the loosest possible sense.
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Riotous Behaviour Vol 5 - Armel Coussine
