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It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 31 Jan 20 at 10:17
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I'm a bit busy at the moment having unwisely and inexplicably got involved in something, but I am clearly missing a point somewhere....
The world purported to despise TM's deal despite, IMO, it being the best shot available. Bozo has now brought forward his deal.
In TM's deal people were unhappy that we would continue to be subject to EU rules until we finally separated.
In Bozo's deal we will continue to abide by EU rules until we finally separate.
In TM's deal we would pay £33bn as our part of the financial settlement
In Bozo's deal we would pay £33bn as our part of the financial settlement
In TM's deal the rights of EU Citizens in the UK and UK Citizens in the EU would be guaranteed.
In Bozo's deal the rights of EU Citizens in the UK and UK Citizens in the EU would be guaranteed.
In TM's deal the 'backstop' was reputably *the* bone of contention. Essentially the backstop said that nothing could change until we had agreed an alternative.
In Bozo's deal apparently the backstop had been removed and instead Northern Ireland will remain aligned to the EU single market AND will have customs check between it and the EU including Ireland. But it will also remain aligned with the UK customs territory and so will have customs checks between it and the rest of the UK.
Do what? So we are so determined to resist a hard border that we settle for two hard borders? Dafuq?
In order to control this nightmare there will be a joint EU/UK committee which will decide which goods are at risk of entering the single market and the UK will collect EU tariffs on them on behalf of the EU or which goods are likely to be transported beyond Norther Ireland into the UK and therefore will require UK tariffs.
And the the Northern Ireland Assembly which spends half it's life suspended will get to vote every *4* years on whether or not to continue.
JFC, Northern Ireland should vote for this deal with all their hearts, they are likely to get very rich.
Live in the UK and want to buy EU goods? [therefore EU standardised] Go to NI and buy them.
Live in the EU and want to buy UK goods? [only if EU standardised] Go to NI to buy them.
All service companies will work out how to frame their service as a product and then sell them through NI.
FFS. Surely that makes no sense to any Remain or Leave supporter with any brain or knowledge of commerce at all.
Loads of advantage for the EU and F.All for the UK.
Or am I just missing something because I;m too busy to pay proper attention?
From my point of view I can see minor inconvenience to me and significant opportunity. I read an article recently comparing the 'typical' profile of a leave voter and a 'typical' profile of the type of person that is likely to lose out through this. As far as I can see that's the same people.
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>>
>> Live in the UK and want to buy EU goods? [therefore EU standardised] Go to
>> NI and buy them.
>> Live in the EU and want to buy UK goods? [only if EU standardised] Go
>> to NI to buy them.
>>
>> All service companies will work out how to frame their service as a product and
>> then sell them through NI.
>>
....interesting that Wright Bus, and its factory, in administration and which was proving very difficult to get a buyer for, suddenly gets a a buyer in the form of a member of the Bamford family (historically one of the major Conservative party donors).
This happened just before the potential arrangements for NI were made public.
How convenient might it prove to have bought a major manufacturing facility in the new zone, aligned to EU standards and arrangements? I wonder how long it will continue to build (only) buses?
Conspiracy theory, moi?
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>> ....interesting that Wright Bus, and its factory, in administration and which was proving very difficult
>> to get a buyer for, suddenly gets a a buyer in the form of a
>> member of the Bamford family (historically one of the major Conservative party donors).
The same Bamford family that were such enthusiastic and vocal Brexit campaigners? Surely not. Say it ain't so!
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...yeah, but I bet he wasn't bonking one of the JCB mob.........
..........although.............
;-)
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Do they ever consider unintended consequences? Remember why NI has no sitting government.
I think you could well be right.
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As a not very important aside, this is probably the end of the DUP's significance in UK Government.
They didn't really seem to make the most of it.
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>> As a not very important aside, this is probably the end of the DUP's significance
>> in UK Government.
>>
>> They didn't really seem to make the most of it.
>>
....screwed by the Conservative Party. Well I never.
TBH, the Lib Dems suffered the same way after Cameron, but are attempting a resurgence.
It's Farage I'm intrigued by. Tweeting his deep satisfaction with Boris's deal. Maybe the penny has actually dropped that if/when we do leave, he'll have to find another pony-trick. (TBH, being continuously attempting to leave, but never doing so, suits his interests perfectly). He'll be like the dog that chases every car, and when he finally catches one hasn't the faintest idea what to do with it. ;-)
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>>
>> It's Farage I'm intrigued by. Tweeting his deep satisfaction with Boris's deal.
dissatisfaction?
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-brexit-delay-boris-johnson-deal-benn-act-article-50-extension-a9160476.html
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 18 Oct 19 at 10:13
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>>
>> dissatisfaction?
>>
....indeed, my bad! (typing).
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If the UK parliament couldn't stomach TM's deal, why should they accept BJ's?
Or will they suddenly come to their senses and decide it's either accept BJ's deal or No Deal?
I'd say No Deal is the most likely outcome. Cynical - moi?
Last edited by: James Loveless on Thu 17 Oct 19 at 20:09
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Whats going to happen?
Bojos deal (mays deal with differents words) will not get the majority required in Parliament
There will be an election
Bojo will get a large enough majority
The deal will go through
JC will resign
The DUP will be banished back into obscurity where they belong
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Oh. I might change my mind. The EU are squabbling about whether to grant the UK an extension. If there's an extension it's more of kicking the can down the road. Various factions in Parliament will love that.
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A bit off-message but who is that bloke nearly always seen in Brussels in very close company with Boris, and was with Theresa? He has a full grey beard and looks like a retired sea captain. He wears an identification ribbon, smiles and is always carrying a briefcase. Maybe it contains the nuclear button?
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...Sir Tim Barrow? (UK Permanent Representative to the EU - succeeded Ivan Rogers who proved persona non grata to the previous PM)
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He's the Ambassador to the EU, so I'd guess so.
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This the chap?:
tinyurl.com/y3axjbqw (article in Civil Service World)
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 18 Oct 19 at 15:53
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Yes thanks, that's him, as confirmed by the photo in the Wikipedia entry on him.
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So seemingly its all been screwed up again.
It's passing me off and I originally didn't want to leave. It must be making the Brexiteers incandescent.
Fidiots need to stop dicking around and get this resolved now.
We need to stop fighting the referendum and fix this s***.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 19 Oct 19 at 15:18
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>>It's passing me off and I originally didn't want to leave. It must be making the Brexiteers incandescent.
>>Fidiots need to stop dicking around and get this resolved now.
>>We need to stop fighting the referendum and fix this s***.
I'm with ^this geezer!
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It's reassuring to learn that Mr Broccoli was marching with the Bremainials.
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More kicking the can down the road *sigh*
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>> It's reassuring to learn that Mr Broccoli was marching with the Bremainials.
Your constant and persistent need to repeatedly return to the division of people into those who wanted Leave and those who wanted Remain is as much part of the problem as your opposite number's resistance to leave.
It's really long past time you grew up and moved on.
The country needs to move on and resolve the problem. If it is too complex or too much effort for you then I would point out you would help more by stfu than by constantly seeking divisonary conflict. I live in a country currently suffering very much from attitudes such as yours.
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"It's really long past time you grew up and moved on."
Oh dear, NoFM, it's just that I despise these people who see it all as a silly game. I went through that phase when I was a student.
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....even you must admit, Mark, that the implication we need "to get out" because "Mr Brocolli" is a remainer is at the more convincing end of all the reasons being put forward....
:-s
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Mr. Brocolli's identity came as a shock to me. I assumed he was a sitting MP, I didn't realise it a was a disguise.
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>> I assumed he was a sitting MP
>>
....Green Party?...
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For those of us in the dark, who is mr broccoli?
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We could tell you, but you know how it is. Guess you'll have signed the forms at some point?
;-)
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>> >> For those of us in the dark, who is mr broccoli?
>>
>> One quick Google.
>>
>> www.itv.com/news/2019-10-18/climate-protester-mr-broccolis-identity-revealed/
>>
Err right thanks, I think it's one of those things that's passed me by.
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>> We need to stop fighting the referendum and fix this s***.
But fix this s*** wholly and entirely by 31 October?
In eight or so sitting days?
For one of the most significant pieces of constiutional, social and economic reforms in our lifetimes?
Without clear assessments of the legal, economic and social impacts?
To satisfy the wants and meet commitments of an egomaniac PM?
Err No.
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Well, it's taken 3 years so far. How much longer would you like to extend it for?
Or do you believe a miracle will happen in 3 months?
Err No.
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>> Well, it's taken 3 years so far. How much longer would you like to extend
>> it for?
For clarity I'm talking about scrutiny of the detail of Boris's agreement not the principle of in or out. Boris's agreement has been extant for three days, not three years. And as Dominic Grieve was pointing out on radio earlier Boris has been telling differnent parties what hey want to hear - even if that means promising things that are contradictory.
>> Or do you believe a miracle will happen in 3 months?
>>
>> Err No.
Now there we may agree although there's a hint that DUP might be coming round to idea of confirmatory referendum which I think is obvious way out - whichever way it goes.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 19 Oct 19 at 21:13
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> to idea of confirmatory referendum which I think is obvious way out - whichever way
>> it goes.
>>
I couldn't think of anything worse.
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"I couldn't think of anything worse"
Best of three?
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Boris has sent a letter to the EU requesting an extension but did not sign it. It was accompanied by another (signed) letter saying that he thinks a delay would be a mistake.
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Yes, and then we'll have that other *osser JRM coming on the radio defending him saying "well 'actually' he never sent the letter".
Idiot!
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And catweazle Corbin wants a 2nd referendum.
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>> And catweazle Corbin wants a 2nd referendum.
I'm not sure he actually does, that's the problem.
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>> >> And catweazle Corbin wants a 2nd referendum.
>>
>> I'm not sure he actually does, that's the problem.
>>
I'm not sure he actually knows what he wants on anything to do with brexit.
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>>I'm not sure he actually knows what he wants on anything to do with brexit.
I know what he wants, but it wouldn't get through the swear filter
:o}
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Arlene Foster, and her DUP
On one hand they have rejected the Brexit deal because it does not treat NI the same as the rest of the UK
On the other hand they are up in arms posturing because the UK abortion bill will apply to NI treating them the same as the UK.
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On the whole I like our electoral system but it is ridiculous that a party so small can hold such power.
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> On the other hand they are up in arms posturing because the UK abortion bill
>> will apply to NI treating them the same as the UK.
>>
Almost, it's more that it's been imposed by Westminster without their say so. Which obviously links back to having no devolved government.
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The loyalty of Loyalists is conditional on UK government giving them what they want.
See Edward Carson and Ian Paisley......
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>> > On the other hand they are up in arms posturing because the UK abortion
>> bill
>> >> will apply to NI treating them the same as the UK.
>> >>
>>
>> Almost, it's more that it's been imposed by Westminster without their say so. Which obviously
>> links back to having no devolved government.
No they appose the content of the bill, despite it being applicable to the rest of the UK. Otherwise it would have been passed when there was a devolved government.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 22 Oct 19 at 08:43
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Of course they oppose the bill that's a given.
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The Abortion Act 1967 well predates the troubles and was never applicable to NI which at time had its own parliament. AIUI effect of 67 Act is to provide a statutory defence to charges under Victorian laws. In absence of 67 act old law still applies in NI -little if any defence.
Legislation at issue now was passed by Westminster at behest of feminist MPs and in absence of NI Assembly. As Arlene and her merry men will not work with Sinn Fein to get the Assembly going again then they cannot make their own law to prevent Westminster's act coming into force today.
Surprising bit to me was how positive Sinn Fein spokeswoman was about abortion rights.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 22 Oct 19 at 10:11
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It's a real shame that Sinn Fein haven't taken their Westminster seats. Time to unite the Island once and for all. A post WW1 fudge delivering on promises made. Time for everyone to move on including the DUP.
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>> Time
>> for everyone to move on including the DUP.
>>
The DUP are quite happy to live in the 15th century, they will never move on.
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>> The DUP are quite happy to live in the 15th century, they will never move
>> on.
Its their reason for existence. Belief in some centuries lost history that now has no relevance.
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>> It's a real shame that Sinn Fein haven't taken their Westminster seats.
Because they won't take the Oath of Allegiance to the Queen.
Why should they? What has believing, or not believing, in a monarchical system of government got to do with one's ability to operate as a member of parliament?
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>> Why should they? What has believing, or not believing, in a monarchical system of government
>> got to do with one's ability to operate as a member of parliament?
They're Irish nationalists. Why would they swear allegiance to a foreign head of state?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 22 Oct 19 at 11:27
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>> They're Irish nationalists. Why would they swear allegiance to a foreign head of state?
>>
We've done all this before. Two different things.
1. They may be Irish, but they are also British, whether they like it or not. She is not a foreign head of state. That is irrelevant.
2. It is not a crime not to believe in a hereditary system of government. Why should they pledge allegiance when it is manifestly insincere - a lie?
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>> 1. They may be Irish, but they are also British, whether they like it or
>> not. She is not a foreign head of state. That is irrelevant.
The Sinn Fein members refusing to take their seats, and many of those who elect them see themselves as Irish and not British. It doesn't matter whether they are also British in law, their own views and those of their electorate mean no participation in a parliament that, in their eyes, has no authority on the island of Ireland. Similarly no oath of allegiance.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/06/sinn-fein-mp-british-parliament-irish-republicans-brexit
>> 2. It is not a crime not to believe in a hereditary system of government.
>> Why should they pledge allegiance when it is manifestly insincere - a lie?
I'd agree with that. We've seen all sorts of capers by Republicans from Willie Hamilton and before to swear the oath but not mean it.
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their own views and those of their electorate mean no participation in
>> a parliament that, in their eyes, has no authority on the island of Ireland.
What an odd idea, that's some mental gymnastics. But that's politicians for you.
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>> What an odd idea, that's some mental gymnastics. But that's politicians for you.
Not that odd when you remember the history of Ireland in general and the six counties in particular.
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>> >> What an odd idea, that's some mental gymnastics. But that's politicians for you.
>>
>> Not that odd when you remember the history of Ireland in general and the six
>> counties in particular.
>>
I don't doubt that the longer these things go on the more convoluted the thinking becomes.
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>> I don't doubt that the longer these things go on the more convoluted the thinking
>> becomes.
There's nothing convoluted about idea that the UK is an occupying power in NI.
You can disagree with it but the basic idea is as straightforward as it comes.
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>> You can disagree with it but the basic idea is as straightforward as it comes.
Not specifically but in part yes. More that a group of people think that the UK parliament should have no power or authority over but does anyway, and then how that distain by standing in an election for said body. And happy to take expenses from said country.
If that isn't convoluted thinking then nothing is.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Oct 19 at 12:41
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>> You can disagree with it but the basic idea is as straightforward as it comes.
Not really, its an occupying force in PART of NI. Thats the problem, if was an occupying power in all of it, withdrawal would be a piece of cake.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Oct 19 at 12:41
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>> Not really, its an occupying force in PART of NI. Thats the problem, if was
>> an occupying power in all of it, withdrawal would be a piece of cake.
I'm talking Republican perception not the situation on ground.
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>> >> What an odd idea, that's some mental gymnastics. But that's politicians for you.
>>
>> Not that odd when you remember the history of Ireland in general and the six
>> counties in particular.
It's all the fault of that little fornicating Welshman born in England - Lloyd George.
In the early 1920s if he had only had the courage, foresight and will to push through legislation that would have made the island of Ireland into one nation, none of this would be happening now.
It will happen one day, but not soon, and not without a lot more heart ache and bloodshed, of that I am sure.
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>> In the early 1920s if he had only had the courage, foresight and will to
>> push through legislation that would have made the island of Ireland into one nation, none
>> of this would be happening now.
A lot of blood would have been shed - see reference to Carson above.
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>> A lot of blood would have been shed - see reference to Carson above.
>>
I have to hand it to you Brompy - no one does irony the way you do. WOW!!
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>>
>> 2. It is not a crime not to believe in a hereditary system of government.
>> Why should they pledge allegiance when it is manifestly insincere - a lie?
Because we all know that the Crown in this context is a symbol. If they are prepared to show good faith in their dealings then they should not have a problem with it.
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>> Because we all know that the Crown in this context is a symbol. If they
>> are prepared to show good faith in their dealings then they should not have a
>> problem with it.
That works for Willie Hamilton or Tony Banks; British MP's of a republican persuasion.
Bit more of a hurdle for Irish nationalists where the UK crown has a deeper symbolism allied to repression and occupation.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 22 Oct 19 at 14:55
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>> Why should they? What has believing, or not believing, in a monarchical system of government
>> got to do with one's ability to operate as a member of parliament?
Boris does not believe, quite happy to abuse or ignore monarchy as he wishes.
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>> Legislation at issue now was passed by Westminster at behest of feminist MPs and in
>> absence of NI Assembly. As Arlene and her merry men will not work with Sinn
>> Fein to get the Assembly going again then they cannot make their own law to
>> prevent Westminster's act coming into force today.
And the point is if they want to be treated as part of the UK, they don't have her own laws. If they do, then they are not treated as part of the UK.
They can't have Brexit cake and eat it. In fact for the refusal to form a devolved government in NI, they should be banned from sitting in the UK parliament.
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>> They can't have Brexit cake and eat it. In fact for the refusal to form
>> a devolved government in NI, they should be banned from sitting in the UK parliament.
That might be a bit difficult to justify particularly now there's nobody sitting in Westminster who also has a seat at Stormont.
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So last night the House voted in favour of a second reading. The ERG have rolled over and enough Labour members went through the Aye lobby to get it over the line. However their reasons for doing so vary. Some actually want Brexit, or at least go along with their constituents wishes as expressed in the referendum. Others however are reported to have decided opening up the bill to next stage, Committee, is best way to progress changes ranging from Customs Union to Referendum 2 and re-instating May's commitment to remain close to Europe on labour market, environment etc.
Boris's 2 days for Committee was clearly unreasonable for any major bill never mind one of this import and complexity. There is of course a strong probability that, given rapidity of its production and failure to put a draft up for scrutiny, that it deserves close attention at this 'line by line' stage.
Surely be a benchmark can be created, based on previous EU legislation from European Communities Act 1972 through subsequent treaties including Maastricht, as to how long might be needed. Could be six days, could be six weeks but there are precedents.
Instead we have Corbyn meeting the PM both with their key advisers, Milne for Corbyn and Cummings for Johnson, and getting nowhere. Labour's account is Jeremy Corbyn reiterated Labour’s offer to the prime minister to agree a reasonable timetable to debate, scrutinise and amend the withdrawal agreement bill, and restated that Labour will support a general election when the threat of a no deal crash-out is off the table. while Johnson says Corbyn made clear he has no policy except more delays and to spend 2020 having referendums..
Of those I think Jezza's looks more statesmanlike while Johnson cannot resist journalistic flourish but who knows where the truth lies.
And of course that's just the Commons. Listening to the points of order following last nights rejection of the timetable motion it's quite apparent that even if the Commons had detained the bill in committee for just a few hours the Lords remains a massive hurdle to Brexit on 31-10-19. That must have been clear to government all along.....
Election now or will Corbyn resile saying no deal is still to close to being on the table?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 23 Oct 19 at 13:31
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> Election now or will Corbyn resile saying no deal is still to close to being
>> on the table?
>>
All depends on whether JC thinks he can win a GE tbh. He's unlikely to give it a green light if Labour are likely to come out worse than now.
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>> All depends on whether JC thinks he can win a GE tbh. He's unlikely to
>> give it a green light if Labour are likely to come out worse than now.
That's my thought too but it will be dressed up as being because the chances of no deal are still too high.
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>> That's my thought too but it will be dressed up as being because the chances
>> of no deal are still too high.
And so confirmed tonight. Claim is too great a chance of no deal between now and January.
ITV news said they'd spoke to insiders in the labour party and they have no interest in a GE.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 24 Oct 19 at 02:37
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Does JC hang on to much public confidence these days? Either as a leader of the Labour Party or a potential PM.
Seems kind of unlikely.
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I think his poll numbers are pretty poor, although I don't follow polls too closely.
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>> I think his poll numbers are pretty poor, although I don't follow polls too closely.
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49798197
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49798197
This is repetition but first of all I'm not a Corbyn fan. No real issue policy wise but he's not got skills to lead a party. My choice would be Starmer but I'd live with others.
Whatever polls say now they can be turned over. Elections in 92, 2010, 15 and 17 all produced results that differed from polls until exit numbers came along. Whatever Corbyn's faults he's a master at speaking from the soapbox. Once election rules apply and broadcast media have to give everybody a fair crack of the whip Labour can move - see 2017.
Boris is a much tougher nut than machine speak May but don't underestimate ability of a candidate playing straight policy off a straight bat to catch public opinion.
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I can't agree with you on Corbyn's oratory skills unfortunately. He never looks totally convinced to me.
I think he might have impostor syndrome (i.e. he has more ability than he thinks he does, the opposite of Dunning Kruger). It wouldn't be surprising, after a lifetime on the back benches and then being thrust into the leader's job.
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>No real issue policy wise..
What are his policies because I'm confused? The impression I get is that they seem to change depending on what day it is and which member of the shadow cabinet is being interviewed at the time.
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>> Whatever Corbyn's
>> faults he's a master at speaking from the soapbox.
He was an absolute disaster with his public utterances in the referendum campaign. He was incompetent - well almost as though he didn't really believe in the Remain campaign, shuffling papers, hesitant. a very poor show.
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>> He was an absolute disaster with his public utterances in the referendum campaign. He was
>> incompetent - well almost as though he didn't really believe in the Remain campaign, shuffling
>> papers, hesitant. a very poor show.
I think it's undisputed that he's an instinctive leaver because EU is seen as standing in way of several projects including undoing privatisations.
It's also a matter of record that he is/was a reluctant leader - he stood as a standard bearer for left and won because nobody, least of all those nominating him, realised it might actually happen.
As a speaker and participant in debate I think he's greatly improved over his time as leader.
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Corbyn's
>> faults he's a master at speaking from the soapbox.
Hes not, the best he managed was tired old left wing labour rhetoric to carefully selected audiences of momentum supporters.
>>Once election rules apply and broadcast
>> media have to give everybody a fair crack of the whip Labour can move -
>> see 2017.
Only because T May appeared as a massive personality vacuum
>> Boris is a much tougher nut than machine speak May
He may be a prick but he has personality.
>>
After its shocking brexit showing, alienating both sides of the argument and its core vote, Labour is toast next time to bat.
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>> Once election rules apply and broadcast
>> media have to give everybody a fair crack of the whip Labour can move -
>> see 2017.
Whatever broadcast media have to do will only make a difference to people of 'our" generation, half the electorate are far more influenced by social media rather than broadcast media, and don't remember the 60s and 70s, to them the idea that things like the railways should be state owned would make them much more efficient.
It's also easy to put spin on people, both positive and negative, via social media.
labour, greens, and liberals actually did this much better than the tories in 2017.
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Teresa May did much more than social media ever could.
"Strong and stable" became a joke of epic magnitude.
All of the cabinet were pretty much hidden from view during the campaign, presumably so she wasn't shown up for her charisma bypass and to try and give her "Maggie" appeal as a figurehead.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 24 Oct 19 at 22:46
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During the leadership campaign didn't Hunt (and most of the others IIRC) say if we were nearly past the post at 31 Oct they'd request an extension, and Boris said we'd crash out?
I suppose his hands were tied though. But it seems he got the job under false pretences. There's a pattern merging... :-)
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DITCH Ditch anyone, wheres that ruddy ditch when you need one.
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>> During the leadership campaign didn't Hunt (and most of the others IIRC) say if we
>> were nearly past the post at 31 Oct they'd request an extension, and Boris said
>> we'd crash out?
Wasn't that clearly part of his effort to create a deadline to try and produce some leverage?
I'm disappointed at the attitude to the EU from the Conservatives, regardless of stay or leave, not to say that there aren't some stupid dick swingers on both sides of course. If ever there was a negotiation that shouldn't have been a zero sum game, starting from the position that we will leave, this was it. It's complicated of course but all the efforts to solve it seem to have been misdirected.
I've always found that it's fairly easy to work out what one's own side wants. But far more worthwhile properly to understand what the other side wants.
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>> Wasn't that clearly part of his effort to create a deadline to try and produce
>> some leverage?
>>
That may be an interpretation which may or may not be the case, but I reckon many Leave supporters would have taken it at face value.
Seems anyone who appears to "get in the way" becomes a target for abuse, maybe his turn now.
I really wouldn't like to predict the outcome of an election. There seems to be a lot of disillusionment with the main parties - many remain Tory voters may well not vote rather than vote for Boris, or maybe would vote LibDem if they fancy a second referendum. Many Labour voters won't want to support Jeremy, and of course there are also many Labour Leave supporters.
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On the latest Yougov tracker, Cons are well ahead of Labour 37% v. 22%.
As to which of Bozo and Obi Wan Corbyn would be the best PM, it's 43% to 20%.
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/22/political-trackers-20-21-oct-update
They're all out of date before they are even published of course but some of these polls are quite funny.
A good one from June - a majority of Conservative voters would sacrifice the Union or their own party's existence to get Brexit, but they would rather call it off than see Corbyn as PM!
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/22/political-trackers-20-21-oct-update
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I believe the politicians were right to vote down the last attempt by Boris. It isn't unreasonable for them to need some time to properly scrutinise the proposals. I just hope that is the intent, rather than more delaying.
I do find the support for a GE odd when we have already had one more recently that the referendum, the result of which people are adamant must stand. (I don't particularly want either)
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Agreed.
Surely by their argument we should only need one GE per lifetime.
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If 'the people' are needed to vote on Brexit again, then have another plebiscite. Why conflate it with a GE?
That just assumes that the people who want e.g. a hard Brexit, also want a Conservative government, and the same for the other options/parties mutatis mutandis.
It's fatuous. I'm obviously wrong because among all the hours of blether I haven't heard anybody say this.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 28 Oct 19 at 16:24
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>> Why conflate it with a GE?
>>
For what it is worth it simplifies the question, there is not a single in/out question you can put for another referendum., and if you put 3 or more options you will end up with just as much of a mess, maybe even more, as the GE option might deliver.
We are way pat the stage of yes/no questions on this.
I used to think a coalition government might be a good idea, if nothing else, the last year has proved we need some more grown ups in Westminster before you can do that.
Last edited by: commerdriver on Mon 28 Oct 19 at 17:04
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The other way of looking at this is that parliament has been elected and is what it is - more recently voted on than Brexit- twice- too. And parliament must sort it out.
I'm in favour of hung parliaments if the alternative is one of two extremes. They need to concentrate on making it function. And while they are at it they can bring in PR.
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I guess it's stating the obvious but I'm sure the GE is just a ploy by Boris to get himself properly elected with a working majority. While in principle there is nothing wrong with that concept, his method strikes me as being pretty cynical (and conceivably having an element of blackmail) and, like other stuff he has done or said, I find that quite distasteful in a Prime Minister.
I am usually a Tory voter but I really don't want to vote for his party, but not because I was a remainer. He knows damn well that people like me won't vote for Labour and is gambling, probably quite safely, that even Leave-inclined Labour voters may not vote Labour. In my mind a GE does nothing to confirm the BREXIT intentions of the electorate.
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>> I am usually a Tory voter but I really don't want to vote for his
>> party, but not because I was a remainer. He knows damn well that people like
>> me won't vote for Labour and is gambling, probably quite safely, that even Leave-inclined Labour
>> voters may not vote Labour. In my mind a GE does nothing to confirm the
>> BREXIT intentions of the electorate.
Do you have a tactical option?
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My local MP is John Redwood, who I met and heard speak once and he's actually OK. (There was a rumour that he was going to get booted out but ended up retaining the nomination by giving some money to the local Conservative association. Probably not true. Whatever, he's had my vote for most the past few occasions.)
We have a new LibDem MP who is MP for the adjacent constituency. Dr Phillip Lee. I think they fancy their chances more here than in Bracknell. I did vote LibDem in the Euro elections as a tactical vote and I will strongly consider it again, but this is a pretty blue area so I'm likely to be wasting my vote really. However I won't be not voting!!
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>> >> Why conflate it with a GE?
>> >>
>> For what it is worth it simplifies the question, there is not a single in/out
>> question you can put for another referendum., and if you put 3 or more options
>> you will end up with just as much of a mess, maybe even more, as
>> the GE option might deliver
I cannot see how a GE can possibly be putting the question in simpler terms that a referendum on Boris's deal. The country voted to leave, this is best deal we can do on how to leave*, do you want that deal or should we call the whole thing off?
What happens if GE delivers another hung parliament?
*It should be crystal clear that leave is not end of process; we then pitch into more and more of the same over a trade deal. That will be more difficult now then under May's agreement as
>> I used to think a coalition government might be a good idea, if nothing else,
>> the last year has proved we need some more grown ups in Westminster before you
>> can do that.
That may be a chicken/egg thing. If they had to run by coalition/consensus then they'd have up their game. We'd also probably need some major reforms of Parliament - one of the reasons the Speaker has become controversial is because process assumes a government with a majority.
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>> one of the reasons the Speaker has become controversial is because process assumes a government with a majority.
He's become unpopular because the press have told people that he is favouring the Remain side. I've been watching more Parliament channel than is healthy, and while I don't understand all the intricacies and nuances of the processes it seems to me he's mostly been pretty fair, and on occasion has favoured each side.
I'm getting a bit fed up with the way that armchair critics who don't seem to comprehend how these things work suddenly being experts based on what the press have fed them. E.g. I wonder how many voters had even heard of WTO rules before about a year into this BREXIT malarky, let alone known enough to have an opinion on whether it is good. I suspect not many. I know I hadn't.
Anyway I hope we can BREXIT before 31 Jan in an orderly fashion, and move on.
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PM’s Bill for election on 12Dec voted down so looks like he will support SNP/Liberal Bill for election on 7th Dec
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>> PM’s Bill for election on 12Dec voted down so looks like he will support SNP/Liberal
>> Bill for election on 7th Dec
He's actually pressing on with a bill for election on 12th rather than LD/SNP option of 9th. Difference is that later date gives him room to try to get WAB through Commons again and portray anybody saying hang on a mo as blocking brexit. There's also a trust issue with anything you can't nail him to.
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In a BBC article today about the new attempt to force an election there is a quote from JRM
"Mr Rees-Mogg added that the government would not bring its Withdrawal Agreement Bill back to MPs for scrutiny, as would be required for Mr Johnson's Brexit deal to become law."
Boris was happy to put his bill forward before. It appeared that it would get support if MPs had proper time for scrutiny.
So I'll conclude that Boris and his team want an election much more than they want BREXIT. Yet they are pointing their finger at everyone else for blocking it.
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>> So I'll conclude that Boris and his team want an election much more than they
>> want BREXIT. Yet they are pointing their finger at everyone else for blocking it.
And who of course went out of their way to block TM's deal, and keep this saga going? Yes you got it, BoJo and JRM
Two faced gits.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 29 Oct 19 at 08:39
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>> In a BBC article today about the new attempt to force an election there is
>> So I'll conclude that Boris and his team want an election much more than they
>> want BREXIT.
He's set great store on getting Brexit done. That's why he tried to force the WAB through in 72 hours. Once that was stopped and a more normal timetable was likely then way was opened for amendments including staying in single market/customs union, people's vote and no doubt loads of other stuff.
He wants an election so he can force it through and play the Parliament v People thing which is of course outrageous given role he, RM and several other members of his team had in preventing us being out seven months ago.
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>> PM’s Bill for election on 12Dec voted down so looks like he will support SNP/Liberal
>> Bill for election on 7th Dec
Guardian website reports that Labour have now agreed to December GE so it looks like game on.
Although this is a flagrant breach of the spirit and purpose of the Fixed Term Parliament Act I don't think the Lords would interfere.
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Although this is a flagrant breach of the spirit and purpose of the Fixed Term
>> Parliament Act I don't think the Lords would interfere.
>>
>>
Both parties seem happy to give that act a good ignoring, I always thought it was a bit of an odd law. Wouldn't be surprised if it's binned off.
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Credit to Corbyn for keeping to his word (eventually).
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>> Credit to Corbyn for keeping to his word (eventually).
While he can say it was only recent statements that moved on risk of no deal once Libs and Nats had committed he was just going to end up looking 'frit'.
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Yer someone give him the "pee or get off the pot" word in is ear'ole
Failure to do so would have seen him ridiculed. And now we are going to see the most radicle campaign in history from him he says. Radicle - if it really is - wins you nothing, not in this country
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In fairness there is a fine history of radicalism in this country - maybe it's what we need. I may vote Labour (for the first time) this time around as only they're the only credible opposition in this electoral area.
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>> In fairness there is a fine history of radicalism in this country - maybe it's
>> what we need. I may vote Labour (for the first time) this time around as
>> only they're the only credible opposition in this electoral area.
Credible? are you having a Giraffe? he has been utterly pathetic, completely unable to conjure up credible alternative from one day to the next, not knowing what to do. Its been like watching a leaf in the whirlpool round a drain before it disappears down the sewer.
There has been nothing radical since the electorate kicked out Churchill after he won the war for them.
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I wouldn't be voting for "him" - I'd be voting for the local candidate or have we gone presidential.
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>> I wouldn't be voting for "him" - I'd be voting for the local candidate or
>> have we gone presidential.
Your "local" MP has has much power and ability to do major stuff as your local street sweeper, less so now in both parties, mutter anything outside what the current president says and you will deselected faster than a flea meeting frontline.
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El-Presidente Boris may not have read that memo to his MPs.
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>> Credible? are you having a Giraffe? he has been utterly pathetic, completely unable to conjure
>> up credible alternative from one day to the next, not knowing what to do. Its
>> been like watching a leaf in the whirlpool round a drain before it disappears down
>> the sewer.
Can I remind this is about electing Members of Parliament - it's not just about the PM though that shouldn't stop Boris being made accountable for his time in number 10.
RP has been pretty open about where he lives; I guess it's either Clwyd West or Aberconwy both of which were Tory 1st Labour 2nd in 2017. Anybody who wants to keep Boris out needs to think about voting tactically - even if that means holding their nose.
There's a case to be made that Labour's team is pretty good - you may fear MacDonnel's policies but he's a competent performer v Javid as is Emily Thornberry who could knock spots off Raab. I'm no fan of Dianne Abbott but in a competence play off in office with Priti Patel she could shine. Keir Starmer should be the leader but is damn good as Brexit Shadow.
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"There's a case to be made that Labour's team is pretty good"
Have you been smoking something nice again, Brompt?
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>> Can I remind this is about electing Members of Parliament - it's not just about
>> the PM though that shouldn't stop Boris being made accountable for his time in number
>> 10.
To the electorate it has EVERYTHING to do with the leader, and as I said to RP, your local MP has never been more emasculated - both parties.
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>> There has been nothing radical since the electorate kicked out Churchill after he won the
>> war for them.
Elections of Wilson, Blair and for that matter Thatcher were expressions of radicalism of one sort or another.
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You're quite right Brom. Clwyd West is my patch. The current Tory MP is not my favourite type of politician, practically invisible in the locality. Aberconwy will get a new candidate as Guto Bebb has quit, but Aberconwy is the type of seat where if a pig wore a blue rosette it would get elected, at least this neck of the woods is a little more er...radical in outlook.
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For the first time in my life, I watched a bit of the Parliament channel today. For the first time in my life, I actually saw reasoned debate without the usual braying and shouting on both sides.
The news coverage never shows this.
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>> I cannot see how a GE can possibly be putting the question in simpler terms
>> that a referendum on Boris's deal. The country voted to leave, this is best deal
>> we can do on how to leave*, do you want that deal or should we
>> call the whole thing off?
>>
To the general public, obviously not to anyone on here, that could well be how it is seen to many, it is a chance to "test the water" if it gives clarity one way or the other
>> What happens if GE delivers another hung parliament?
>>
Equally likely in my view but might focus a few minds, depends what kind of "hung" parliament we end up with, might give Labour a chance to get shot of Jeremy, might finish Boris off as well and give more reasonable minds a chance to act as statesman and come up with a way ahead.
It is all about whatever result is presented to the voting public before and after, both in terms of the occupants of the House and in terms of the general public. We are not in an ideal situation and we are no closer to the "correct' answer, whatever that is, than we were 3 years ago.
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I am a confused Scottish indy supporter and remainer. Not necessarily an SNP voter.
Scotland didn’t vote for Brexit. Didn’t vote for a Tory parliament but are getting both. I understand why that is the case as we are part of UK. I also understand that Cherry of the SNP has been very clever with her joint court cases that have held Boris to account more than probably anyone else in Parliament.
I watched Ian Blackford in Parliament today and although I understand he is there to fight for the Scottish voice, I feel that he should tone down the Scottish references if he is trying to win cross party support to beat Boris. I could understand why MPs might just get fed up with his constant Scottish references. Case in point, he quoted every Scot would be £1600 worse off under Brexit. In my opinion, his take on that should have been to add on “and similar figures to citizens across the whole of the UK” to get everyone on his side.
SNP want an election. They want it on the basis that they believe they will win more seats in Scotland and the Tories will take a hammering. However in the big picture of the UK, all polls suggest Tories will make gains and may even get a majority. So Nicola gets to say we are rid of the Scottish tories, but we in turn have Boris for 5 years.
SNP are pushing for indie. It is why they exist so I can understand that. Back when we had our indie vote I voted for independence. I realised it would be tough for a few years but was prepared to make sacrifices for the future to be Westminster free.
In one way the Brexit debacle strengthens the indie case – lets free Scotland of all this Westminster nonsense. However. Brexit has also shown that these divorces don’t come easy. In fact, they might not come at all. And that is of course, before you mention borders. If Brexit happens, assume part of an indy vote would be to get back in to EU. In which case would we need to discuss a Scotland England border of some sort?
Also, how much trade does Scotland do with rest of UK compared to EU?
All very confusing (to me).
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Roughly Scottish trade; (treat with a pinch of salt, +/- 10% perhaps, I don;t know of a single data source).
Exports:
£48bn to the rest of the UK
£13bn to the EU.
£4bn to the US
£4bn to the Netherlands
£5bn to the rest of the world.
Imports:
£60bn from the rest of the UK
£9bn from the EU
£3bn from the US
£3bn from China
£7bn from the rest of the world
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 28 Oct 19 at 20:18
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>>I realised it would be tough for a few years but was prepared to make sacrifices for the future to be Westminster free.
Is that not *exactly* what many Brexit voters said about Brussels?
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>>Is that not *exactly* what many Brexit voters said about Brussels?
Not before the referendum, they didn't
Since then they've changed their tune about the fiscal sensibility of giving Westminster more power and less checks and balances.
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< I realised it would be tough for a few years but was prepared to make sacrifices for the future
I love that phrase, one toted about by the brexiteers too.
Who in hell gives you the right to inflict "tough" on anyone else who cant afford to make the sacrifices?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Oct 19 at 21:13
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>>All very confusing (to me).
Not surprised at all Bobby:
theferret.scot/scotland-uk-country-export-import/
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And we’ve just lost the Tesla Gigafactory (batteries) to Germany with Brexit cited as the main reason!
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>> And we’ve just lost the Tesla Gigafactory (batteries) to Germany with Brexit cited as the
>> main reason!
Not lost, it was never coming here anyway.
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I am shocked. I have been assured by every Brexit supporter who has no idea how international business works, no involvement in import or export, and a blind faith in the Daily Mail that we could just adopt WTO rules and everything would be fine.
www.bbc.com/news/business-50419130
This is very disillusioning, disappointing and quite out of the blue. I'm sure a large section of Brexit supporters will be equally shocked.
Still, probably just Project Fear and undoubtedly worth the price anyway.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 14 Nov 19 at 20:57
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I don't understand any of it, ergo it doesn't affect me.
And Boris says he'll reduce immigration while that soft-as-s***e predecessor of his let non-EU immigration soar.
If he says it, it means it will happen.
Sincerely
Gammon R. Tard.
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As the Brexit discussion thread starts to fall away I have to report something I find quite amusing.
I am part of a Facebook group dedicated to employees, current and retired, of my old force.
There was a number of Remainers who were quite vocal, dismissive of alternate views and also aggressively rude. Not uncommon I found with that particular group.
However debate still goes on and as it has become almost inevitable that we are departing they have now turned on themselves about the type of Brexit they want and voted for (not that we did). Very amusing :)
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Is this a good idea ?
My old mum has decided to fly out with me 20/01/20 to my rented villa in Spain where the change of company with my friends, different scenery and better climate will do her good. I’m thinking of booking her a return flight on 01/02/20 where she will travel unaccompanied. She has a wheelchair but can walk short distances, is ok mentally given her age (92) and is adamant she doesn’t want me to fly back with her and then return to Spain a few days later.
A good friend has offered to meet her at the U.K. Arrival airport, drive her home, put her water back on, check her heating is ok, do some shopping en route. It’s a daytime flight, arriving U.K. 13:55 which is pretty much perfect given her age.
Does anyone foresee any problems with travel on that date....crystal ball time. I’m more than happy to fly home with her, flight costs and inconvenience to me are immaterial, but I’m torn between the two options.
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Whenever you fly there is always the risk of delays or unforeseens such as diversions to another airport. So accepting that those risks apply whatever date she flies it's a question of what the additional risk might be.
I guess there might be Brexit departure delays on 01/02 but if they were severe you could always take her back to your holiday accommodation until things settle down after a few days.
However we've all seen and survived millennium bug, previous Brexit deadline dates, controllers' strikes and travel firm collapses. In each case the airlines/govt have performed pretty well. My betting is that traveller numbers will be low that week and it will all go smoothly.
So if she is up for the trip and the normal risk of delay then I don't think Brexit poses a significant extra risk. Just be prepared for a wait (as you are not travelling you could take a couple of folding chairs if the airport hasn't good waiting areas). And agree with her what your acceptable wait time is before you both return to the hacienda. You could also book into a business lounge if that appeals.
Last edited by: martin aston on Sun 29 Dec 19 at 10:13
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She makes that journey twice a year, normally with myself and friends, always using the ‘sin barreras ‘ disability assistance people.
She has her own manual wheelchair, so I could return the hire car, push her to the ‘sin barreras’ desk, get the wheelchair tagged, then take her to security. She will only have the normal Jet2 10kg allowance hand luggage small case, which a friend usually pulls so no checked bag.
At the disabled desk near security there will be someone to push her wheelchair, and pull her hand luggage, through security, take her to the gate, and get her boarded.
At the other end my friend will be waiting for her landside.
We won’t be able to use Alicante exec lounge as it’s airside.
Once ‘deposited’ I’ll hang around until her flight departs then collect another rental car. What could possibly go wrong !
Then back to Moraira up the AP7 for an XL gin, or more, and a curry at the Royal Buddha
Sorted
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I shouldn't think anything will go wrong.
But it might, and that's not a risk I would take for the sake of a tiresome trip.
Risk is all about chances of it going wrong and how bad is it if it does. Well this might not be likely to go wrong, but it'll be pretty damned bad if it does. And think how you would feel knowing that you could have avoided it.
Fly with her you know it makes sense.
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I agree. Think I would have made some excuse as to why I needed to return home for a few days anyway. Older parents tend to say they do not to want you to take too much trouble on their behalf even if they don’t quite mean it.
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The risk of it going wrong is quite high, because you have mitigated some, but assumed mitigation for most. Make some excuse for going back with her.
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Thanks for your replies. Appreciated.
I know I wouldn’t get let down at this end...if one of my friends couldn’t meet her then another one always would.
I’ve gone for the safety first option. Travel back with her, leave my car at LBA for the duration, get her home by late Saturday afternoon. The cost of the accompanying flight 01/02/20 to the UK with Jet2, return flight to Espana on 03/02/20, and parking with Sentinel for almost 2 weeks left change from £200.
The cost of peace of mind immeasurable
I told her that after two weeks of drinking Mahou and Dorada I’d be gagging for some proper beer in my local back in the Dales
She nodded knowingly.....
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Brexit Discussion - Volume 86 - No FM2R
