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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on.
We will not give notice that we have deleted something. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted.
It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 24 Aug 19 at 21:19
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...and still the penny hasn't dropped..... :-(
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49076294
Hunt:
"I say Angela and Emmanuel, this thing in the Gulf hasn't half gone t1ts up, Apparently, we're neither equipped, organised nor competent to put together a response, and the Americans have told us to get stuffed*.
It would be really, really good if we could put together a pan-European response, and even better if we could agree it before we leave in three months time. Pretty please....
What say, Ang, Manu........errr Ang, Manu.....err, helloooo!"
*apparently Mike Pompeo, in a politically oriented response, has told us we're on our own.
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He was always going to ask them, mainly due to our views and the fr/gr being very similar unlike ours and the US. It's in all three countries interest to work something out, however if you think our forces out there are undercooked, best not think about the Germans. The French are a possibility but they tend to be more spread out across the world.
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T.Blair in the Times
"No-one knows with certainty the impact of no deal for the simple reason that no developed nation has ever left overnight its preferential trading arrangements in this manner"
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That just points to a twitter feed, not a particular tweet?
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>> That just points to a twitter feed, not a particular tweet?
>>
You mean that although it's 200 characters long, it still doesn't point to a particular tweet?
Is that what they call inefficiency?
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...My imagined conversation was, of course, tongue in cheek.
...The underlying sentiment wasn't.
It demonstrates the dangers of exiting a bloc (the EU) because you think you are politically subservient (but aren't) only to try to join up with one (the US) where you most definitely won't be welcome unless you do become politically subservient.
Since you choose to quote Mr. Araud's tweet, below is an earlier (only just) one summing up the sentiment that the EU is likely to express re Jeremy Hunt's position.
twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1153352535295647746
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 11:16
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> It demonstrates the dangers of exiting a bloc (the EU) because you think you are
>> politically subservient (but aren't) only to try to join up with one (the US) where
>> you most definitely won't be welcome unless you do become politically subservient.
I guess it's all a matter of context, there's no absolutes. Our interests will align regardless of in/out of the EU.
>> Since you choose to quote Mr. Araud's tweet, below is an earlier (only just) one
>> summing up the sentiment that the EU is likely to express re Jeremy Hunt's position.
>>
>> twitter.com/GerardAraud/status/1153352535295647746
>>
I didn't choose that particular person for any other reason than he was the first, that I saw, to break the news.
All depends if we asking the EU or France. Personally I wouldn't be too worried about the assets of the Hungarian, Slovenian navy etc.
He went to ask for practical support and got it.
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I know it's not popular opinion, but I like the French.
They can be snooty but I have been helped out by them when in trouble there.
One one occasion, the help was, well, offered in the way of "I can't believe you asked me to do that, but i will do it". But importantly the help was given.
On another occasion, I got off at the wrong country station on the way to a client. Town East vs Town West and the difference was about 5 miles and no taxis.
I went in to a cafe opposite the station and explained the situation and a couple of locals offered to drive me to the client's factory buried in the local countryside and refused to accept any money to the extent that I had to leave it on the passenger seat as I hopped out.
French clients were always helpful, always with a shrug of the shoulders, but invariably provided the information or where you could find it if it was on an official report.
We were always warmly welcomed back and had good lunches with them.
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I think the Parisiens are particularly difficult with tourists.
Outside Paris and/or not as a tourist and things are quite different.
Whereas I am sure that Londoners are a total joy with foreign tourists.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49053233
...Ms Coombs, who says she pines for the "halcyon days" of the 1940s and 50s, insists her vote for Brexit had "absolutely nothing to do with immigration", although she immediately adds: "We do need to have a limit on that."
In other news... I'm not racist, but...
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49053233
>>
>> ...Ms Coombs, who says she pines for the "halcyon days" of the 1940s and 50s,
>> insists her vote for Brexit had "absolutely nothing to do with immigration", although she immediately
>> adds: "We do need to have a limit on that."
>>
>>
>> In other news... I'm not racist, but...
>>
I'm no expert, but the halcyon days of the 1940's and 50s included the blitz, millions being killed by the Nazis, judicial hangings, no NHS until 1948, lower pay for women, women not allowed to take out loans in their own name, rationing etc.
Perhaps she does know what she wants - if so that is very frightening!
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Correct there was nothing Halcyon about the 40s and 50s, dark days. But then WTF does she know about it, she wasn't born in the 40s.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 23 Jul 19 at 12:30
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....au contraire; bring back war and rationing - that's what everyone wants. Far better than being a member of the EU....
:-(
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Yes, I have noticed that the "100 posts and restart" policy is not being blindly followed any more, especially now that it is no longer necessary with the changes in technology.
Just thought I'd mention that the change has been noted and appreciated, at least by me.
Thank you.
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>> I have noticed that the "100 posts and restart" policy is not being blindly followed any more
Only reason is that this thread hasn't been very active lately. When it gets a few more replies, it'll be restarted with a new volume and a handful of posts from here moved into the new thread.
Say as an example the tory leadership thread was close to or just over 100 posts, then a new one would have been created because it would be inevitable that it would become busy all of a sudden.
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>> Just thought I'd mention that the change has been noted and appreciated, at least by
>> me.
And by me too. Appreciate that ongoing threads may need dividing into volumes at some point but the way the forum software does it can cut interesting debates off at the knees.
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According to BJ today, leaving without a deal will be the EU's fault!
Just like a kidnapper blaming the relatives for the death of the victim!
The bloke is comic!
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Of course it will be the EU,s fault. Our failure to get the deal WE want will be THEIR fault. And economic failure of the UK thereafter will be shared between the remoaners who failed to make it work, and the EU who failed to cave in to our demands.
A brexiteer is unable to accept reality or responsibility.
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Oh this has started well....
"Boris Johnson's Brexit policy 'unacceptable' - EU negotiator"
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49118107
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So what Mark?
BBC typical bias and carp.
Why no headlines 'Michel Barniers Brexit policy unacceptable' Boris Johnson'
What did you expect Barnier to say? 'Oh now that Boris is PM we are going to change our position....
More has happened in the last 48 hours than the last three years.
Lets wait and see shall we .
Last edited by: helicopter on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 11:20
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>> More has happened in the last 48 hours than the last three years.
Like?
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Yes, I do like :o).
OK here goes...in 48 hours we have
.... a proper leader, not a manager.
..... a Cabinet that more accurately represents the will of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit.
..... finally someone in charge with a plan of action ie to scrap the Withdrawal Agreement , tell the Eurocrats to whistle for the 39 billion and prepare for what I believe is an inevitable no deal.
Whatever happens I foresee an Autumn general election where a large number of remainer Tory MP's will be deselected and a possible alliance between Nigel and Boris to keep Corbyn out.
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>> MP's will be deselected and a possible alliance between Nigel and Boris
What on earth makes you think that nightmare scenario will happen. Boris was elected to keep Farage in his box. Boris's policy is not get the UK out of the EU, its to keep the Tory PARTY from disintegrating into Farages camp.
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The possible alliance will come into play if Parliament blocks a no deal exit Z.
Of course he wants to keep the Tories together.That is a given.
As I see it if Boris is forced into an election , a large proportion of the Brexit Party who are disaffected Tories lwill return to the fold or push Nigel for an alliance.
By the way the Tories are already on an election footing . They have 'already mounted an on line blitz of political adverts to promote Boris and test election messages' according to the Torygraph today.
We shall just have to see what happens in the autumn but something has to give in the impasse May got the country into.
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>> according to the Torygraph today.
>>
Do keep in mind that the Torygraph, with it's ever decreasing readership, is very much a Johnson fanzine. I can't think of much worse than the slightly sinister Barclay brothers trying to extend their influence over the UK as they tried (and failed) to do in Sark.
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Of course they are a Tory paper Vx ... but that does not mean that what they report is wrong. Are the Barclay brothers any different to any other proprietors of news organisations such as Murdoch in using their influence to get their own way? The Telegraph do have, more than most ,the inside track on what Boris and his cohorts are planning.
Boris is already a proven winner against Labour in London and it would IMO be stupid to think that he has no plan in place to fight an election.
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>> Boris is already a proven winner against Labour in London and it would IMO be
>> stupid to think that he has no plan in place to fight an election.
Funnily enough he was pro Europe then.
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>> Are the Barclay brothers any different to any other proprietors
>> of news organisations such as Murdoch in using their influence to get their own way?
Yes they are, check out their scandalous actions in Brecqhou and Sark.
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>> .... a proper leader, not a manager.
By what metric? It takes more than saying what people want to hear to be a leader. Saying what people want is *exactly* being a manager.
>> tell the Eurocrats to whistle for the 39 billion
You do realise the basis for that £39m, don't you? Or do you think it is simply an unjustified, unreasonable demand?
>>a possible alliance between Nigel and Boris to keep Corbyn out.
You see Farage as better than Corbyn? Oh dear God.
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I'm assuming Boris is thinking - unless something happens, legally we will be leaving. Something probably won't happen, especially if he makes it impossible by rhetoric.
So we're going whatever. Therefore let's make a noise about how great it will be, given that it's unavoidable, take any credit there is to be taken, however small, and also lay the groundwork for it being everyone else's fault.
So by doing nothing at all, we are going to leave anyway, and you might as well try to own the situation.
In Ireland, it will be - well, we don't want a border, but that horrid EU will, so they will have to build a border. Then any problems will be because of them and their nasty old border guards. Again, Boris needs to do nothing, other than spin it.
Maybe. Who knows what he actually thinks.
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>> I'm assuming Boris is thinking - unless something happens, legally we will be leaving. Something
>> probably won't happen, especially if he makes it impossible by rhetoric.
>>
>> So we're going whatever. Therefore let's make a noise about how great it will be,
>> given that it's unavoidable, take any credit there is to be taken, however small, and
>> also lay the groundwork for it being everyone else's fault.
>>
>> So by doing nothing at all, we are going to leave anyway, and you might
>> as well try to own the situation.
>>
>> In Ireland, it will be - well, we don't want a border, but that horrid
>> EU will, so they will have to build a border. Then any problems will be
>> because of them and their nasty old border guards. Again, Boris needs to do nothing,
>> other than spin it.
A lot of truth in that, I suspect.
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>> So what Mark?
>>
>> BBC typical bias and carp.
>>
>> Why no headlines 'Michel Barniers Brexit policy unacceptable' Boris Johnson'
>>
>> What did you expect Barnier to say? 'Oh now that Boris is PM we are
>> going to change our position....
It's worth reporting because Bozo has repeatedly declared he will change it.
I once worked for an idiot who told me that my 'failure' to obtain a supply contract with a third party was "unacceptable", as if that would change the facts. I told him not to accept it then, but that I had and I had a plan for dealing with it. He kept insisting that I should agree that it was unacceptable. I said that his point, whatever it was, was irrelevant as what he wanted couldn't be done.
He complained to his boss that I was not up to the job. I got a new boss. The third party was a very large bank whose policy precluded an increase in exposure to our specific sector.
Bozo is no better than the twit I had to report to. He's the one who is pretending he can change reality. No doubt he will present whatever he does do as exactly that, but it won't be.
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>> So what Mark?
>>
>> BBC typical bias and carp.
>>
>> Why no headlines 'Michel Barniers Brexit policy unacceptable' Boris Johnson'
It's pretty much way rest of media have put it.
We reached and agreement with the EU. The 'backstop' was inserted at our insistence for reasons that probably had most to do with DUP; it's not 'their' backstop.
Now we want to change it. If EU 27 won't play ball that's not Barniers' policy, it's that of all of them and one that's perfectly understandable.
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>> Why no headlines 'Michel Barniers Brexit policy unacceptable' Boris Johnson'
Surely that is exactly what Johnson has been saying as reported by the media for about 9 months?
>> What did you expect Barnier to say? 'Oh now that Boris is PM we are
>> going to change our position....
No. But it would appear to be that exactly that was expected by many.
>> More has happened in the last 48 hours than the last three years.
Such as what?
UK says EU deal is unacceptable
EU says UK is unacceptable.
Right, *huge* change. Not. The beginning of a new era. Not.
>> Lets wait and see shall we .
You make decisions for yourself and wait for whatever you want. If I wish to discuss, speculate or otherwise comment I shall continue to do so.
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Did I say I was stopping you from your speculation Mark?
I am making my Brexit predictions for the next few months as I see it. The fact that you do not agree with them is irrelevant to me. My opinion is entirely as valid as yours, no more or less.
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>>>> Lets wait and see shall we
How would you interpret the use of the word "we"? Or perhaps more relevant, how did you mean it?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 26 Jul 19 at 23:12
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I meant all of us, everyone, the whole country, but you can take it personally if you wish...
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Oh, you meant all of us. Well in that case, you make decisions for yourself and wait for whatever you want. If I wish to discuss, speculate or otherwise comment I shall continue to do so.
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You just cannot accept that anyone else has a valid point of view can you?
17.4 million like me made their decisions three years ago.
Remain lost , you really need to get over it and get on with your life.
If you want to spend time continuing to rant to the few who read this thread then be my guest.
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>> You just cannot accept that anyone else has a valid point of view can you?
>>
>> 17.4 million like me made their decisions three years ago.
>>
>>
>> Remain lost , you really need to get over it and get on with your
>> life.
To be fair to Mark I think he is of view that we follow the referendum and leave. The issue for now is how we do it.
Talk of Remain Lost (and by inference we need to suck it up) doesn't help. Neither (IMHO) does talk of telling the 'Eurocrats' to stick the bill for commitments we entered into as Members. What message does that send to any other nation thinking of entering into treaty obligations with us?
If we crash out you and I and for that matter Mark can get on with our lives. A lot of people won't find it so easy.
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>>To be fair to Mark I think he is of view that we follow the referendum and leave.
Indeed I am. It is unfortunate that so many leave voters do not understand the issues and think to stand in the middle of the street whining "leave" is sufficient.
>>Remain lost
Oh is that the latest pathetic, school boy comment which passes for humour? I'd not heard it before. Really, you lot do seem to spend a lot of time making this s*** up and then being all smug about it.
Once we have left I wonder who will become the scapegoat for our nations whiners. The symbol for their own failure and inadequacy yet still avoiding any need for them to take responsibility for their own position?
Because you will need something. I suspect that Zero is correct and that you will all whine about the way that leaving was handled, without having put one moment of effort into understanding or contributing to the process. A life long approach, I suspect.
>>You just cannot accept that anyone else has a valid point of view can you?
Quite the contrary, you are insisting that we must "wait and see" and I am insisting that I will pass opinion if and when I choose despite you trying to surpress it.
>>If you want to spend time continuing to rant to the few who read this thread then be my guess
Well, you're reading every word and getting pee'd off by it, so it's hardly a waste of time.
Your value to this topic seems to be represented by little nicknames and an inability to grasp the issues.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 27 Jul 19 at 16:06
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"If you want to spend time continuing to rant to the few who read this thread then be my guest"
I'm one of them and it's important to me. I can't get a newspaper and can't get BBC news and nobody else in my house is interested in Brexit. So I get it here.
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>> If you want to spend time continuing to rant to the few who read this
>> thread then be my guest.
You seem to be reading this thread, so He has an audience in you to rant to.
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Awww, did some little boy stamp his little feet put a frowny face on my post. Awww, bless.
Gutless t***.
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Well whoever it was it was not me....
If I disagree with you and think you are a gutless t*** I will say so to your face but then I do not resort to namecalling or act like a spoiled two year old when he does not get his way.
As nothing appears to have changed in your attitude for the last 50 or so volumes of this thread since Pat was barred I see no point in making any further contribution.
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>> I see no point in making any further contribution.
No doubt we will cope with the loss.
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>>Well whoever it was it was not me....
Actually it never even occurred to me to think that it was you.
I thought and think it was some gutless t*** who didn't have the balls to voice an opinion so was whinging anonymously.
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Not singling anyone out in particular, but, as mentioned at the start of this (and a few previous) threads
"Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated."
Thank you.
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Not sure if this fits directly under the Brexit thread?
Anyhow I'm after some honest advice regarding any changes that might have already happened to products with CE marks and their possible conversion to a BS kit mark.
Bit of background... if you didn't know I work in theatres at a DGH so deal with procurement for medical products/devices for use during operating procedures.
Today we've heard that one of the companies we use has suspended their supplies because "the products are made in the EU but now require a 'BS kite' mark before they can be released onto the UK market to be used".
Does anybody know if this is true? or am I smelling a different kind of BS?
Currently it is just the one company but I know that the majority of our disposable products (especially in anaesthetics) are made in Easten Europe so this could hit the NHS big time.
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That may become the case in future but it is not at the moment.
Perhaps somebody has made a commercial decision.
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My mate, who actually sits on one of the EU committees which approves standards for his specialist equipment (not medical!) reckons the UK will just effectively "wave through" anything which has European approval.
I'm a bit doubtful about that, as I'd have thought that ultimately whatever rules and remedies may be available under EU law will not be applicable here, so if an EU approved product fails where is the comeback for the user?
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You couldn't write this s***....
" Michael Gove says the EU "seem to be refusing to negotiate with the UK" over a new Brexit deal. "
"It comes after the EU said UK demands to remove the Irish backstop from Theresa May's deal were unacceptable."
"Mr Gove .... said he was "deeply saddened"
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49251257
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>> You couldn't write this s***....
And this is supposed to be the party of business and entrepreneurialism.......
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Yes, you know, the ones that have been saying all along that all we needed to do was to tell the EU that the solution is acceptable and that they must negotiate further.
Seems to be going well so far.
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"UK economy shrinks for the first time since 2012"
www.bbc.com/news/business-49290926
It would be a mistake to say that this was solely because of Brexit. However, it most certainly is exacerbated by it. If things are getting lumpy then businesses will look for a safe port for the storm. And I don't think that will be the UK.
It also indicates that nobody is willing to put their money where their mouth is when they say that the UK will do so well after Brexit.
On a related note, there was an article on the BBC this morning which I think must have been removed; it was s***, but that doens't normally bother the BBC. Either way, I cannot find it.
Anyway, it was a piece saying that various trade advisors, negotiators and politicians in the US were saying that nobody should worry, the US was ready to sign trade deals with the UK and would begin negotiations as soon a s the UK was out of the EU.
The throwaway comment which made me laugh was; "... though the spokesman did admit it might take some years".
So, no need to worry then. We'll just hold on a bit.
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>> "UK economy shrinks for the first time since 2012"
>>
>> www.bbc.com/news/business-49290926
>>
>> It would be a mistake to say that this was solely because of Brexit.
This one is wholly because of Brexit, not the fact of brexit but the cock ups in doing it.
Its almost totally down to the stockpiling and planning that took place prior to the last brexit date,
It passed of course without anything happening, so there is excess production in the system.
It would have been weak growth anyway, car production has tanked because of government policy.
There is a global recession coming anyway because of Trumps policies, and out of the EU is a bad place to weather it. Its gonna be tough next two years.
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Of course the septics are gagging to sign a trade deal - on their terms. Maggoty chlorine-washed chicken and beef with added hormones, anyone? It will of course be cheaper than our home-produced so our farmers might not like it. So let's hope the negotiations do take years because if Bozo, Raab Gove roll over we won't come out ahead.
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Power cuts, Brexit chaos - don't worry you can't change things.
As the Russian spy (played by Mark Rylance) said in Bridge of Spies about worrying:
"Will it help ?"
And . . .
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYi5aW1GdUU
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Not that we need further confirmation but Farage is such a vile turd.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-49317656
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I've no idea how popular or not Prince harry is since marriage. But the rest of it is fairly mainstream. Prince Charles isn't runaway popular with the public.
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I'll pre-empt Bromp and just leave this here.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics
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>> Not that we need further confirmation but Farage is such a vile turd.
It seems his apologists are still handy with the scowly even if no longer willing to post in his defence. He's a one man band who can deal it out but is VERY thin skinned when he's in the frame.
Listen to his contributions to electoral leadership debates in 2015......
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 Aug 19 at 19:49
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"Bellicose Toad" was a memorable response.
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Like him or what he did or not, he must have some special talent to bring about such turmoil.
Maybe Boris should co-opt him for his own project.
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>>he must have some special talent
or backers
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>> Like him or what he did or not, he must have some special talent
His talent is to act the part we see him in; pub raconteur.
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>> Like him or what he did or not, he must have some special talent to
>> bring about such turmoil.
If a skunk wanders into a crowded room and sprays, which is what it does when it feels threatened, it will cause panic and chaos.
It's still a skunk though.
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I object to your comparison with a skunk.
We had skunks living in woodland behind our apartment and they were never any trouble at all. Quite sociable with the racoons and dillos in fact. They make quite good pets when de-scented.
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I agree. Skunks are not a black and white issue.
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Lets not get sniffy about it.
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Corbyn, what a t***.
Called for a vote of no confidence in the Tory party, which he probably could win. Then added that labour would be the temporary government, with him in charge pending a GE. Well that screwed it up, and he has no chance of winning.
What a self deluded prick.
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I concur, old bean.
Like any Tory will back Corbyn when the primary objective isto give him 5 years in the driving seat.
Total sphincter.
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>> Called for a vote of no confidence in the Tory party, which he probably could
>> win. Then added that labour would be the temporary government, with him in charge pending
>> a GE. Well that screwed it up, and he has no chance of winning.
If it wasn't clear already that his being potentially in No 10 was a problem it certainly is now. Main public objection seems to have come from LD's, Dominic Grieve, Oliver Letwin and Caroline Spelman are all apparently happy to talk to him. There will though be other Tories who find JC beyond the pail in that role as does the redoubtable Ms Soubry and i dare say a chunk of the Labour party.
Other names suggested to lead a 'GNU' are Ken Clarke or Yvette Cooper. Whether people will rally around their flags, or those of others such as Grieve himself, Keir Starmer or Hilary Benn, remains to be seen.
We live in interesting times.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 15 Aug 19 at 14:54
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All this talk of a caretaker government, imho, is little more than wishful thinking and failing about. All seems to be, let's think of anything we can to get into government. I don't see any of it coming to pass.
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>> All this talk of a caretaker government, imho, is little more than wishful thinking and
>> failing about. All seems to be, let's think of anything we can to get into
>> government. I don't see any of it coming to pass.
>>
Me neither.
Whatever mess the Tories are in, Labour are in at least as bad a one and possibly worse. The ragbag of revolutionaries who joined the party specifically to elect Corbyn are not going to get rid of him and the electorate won't touch him with a bargepole.
With a soft left leader the party would be a shoe-in to win an election, with Jeremy they will be lucky to finish second.
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>>Me neither.
+1
The bloke is effectively plotting to become PM with a change of party without so much as an election.
That's a coup!
Bloke is an absolute *******!
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>> >>Me neither.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> The bloke is effectively plotting to become PM with a change of party without so
>> much as an election.
>>
>> That's a coup!
I think it's constitutionally perfectly legitimate.
We have a Commons of 650(?) Members elected in 2017. Under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act they remain Members until either the next election occurs in 2022 or the Commons votes by a 2/3 majority for an early election (as happened in 2015).
No party has an overall majority but the Conservatives govern aided by a 'confidence and supply' agreement with the DUP.
Let's say that come return of the house in September a motion is passed that 'This House Has No Confidence in Her Majesty's Government'. There is then a 14 day period in which the elected Members can, as it were, re-align themselves and form a temporary government, or a Government of National Unity which commands the confidence of the House (ie has a majority of Members supporting it). It could be led by Corbyn but IMHO and I suspect that of a large cohort of members of the Commons it would be better led by a respected 'elder statesperson'. Names are suggested up thread.
Nothing constitutionally wrong with that, no coup, just a realignment of the Commons. Whoever was the Leader it would be clear they only had confidence of the house for limited purposes of extending A50 and organising election and/or referendum. no mandate for full blooded Corbynite programme - even if he got to be leader.
Don't think such a thing has happened in my lifetime but it's not that different to Feb 1974 when Heath could not pull together a deal with Thorpe and didn't have enough votes in House; we got a minority govt.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 15 Aug 19 at 17:27
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I couldn't imagine any of them in any number deciding that they could agree on alternative leader.
They are very good at saying what they don't like but poor at saying what they can agree on.
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"Maggoty chlorine-washed chicken and beef with added hormones, anyone?"
I don't understand what all the song and dance is about. Even if we end up with such products from the USA, then the consumer doesn't have to buy them.
According to this website, uk.usembassy.gov/visiting-united-states/ almost five million UK residents visited the USA in 2015. I don't recall reading of mass illnesses afterwards.
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>> "Maggoty chlorine-washed chicken and beef with added hormones, anyone?"
>>
>> I don't understand what all the song and dance is about. Even if we end
>> up with such products from the USA, then the consumer doesn't have to buy them.
>>
The same excuse used by Tesco when they were killing off the high streets.
Many will buy super-cheap food, to the detriment of those doing things in a more acceptable way.
>> According to this website, uk.usembassy.gov/visiting-united-states/ almost five million UK residents visited the USA in 2015.
>> I don't recall reading of mass illnesses afterwards.
Is that all that matters?
A lot of catering stuff is muck here as well. No need to make it any worse.
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>> A lot of catering stuff is muck here as well. No need to make it
>> any worse.
On the whole, run of the mill food you buy in Walmart USA or Kroger is tasteless pap, including their chicken.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 15 Aug 19 at 20:32
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>> On the whole, run of the mill food you buy in Walmart USA or Kroger
>> is tasteless pap, including their chicken.
And don't get me started on their 'cheese' or 'bacon'.
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>And don't get me started on their 'cheese' or 'bacon'.
Actually I quite like Pepper Jack cheese on a burger. And if you want decent bacon in the US go for what they often call "Canadian" or "Irish" bacon.
The thing that I found most difficult to get was a good curry. Only place I found was a restaurant in San Francisco run by a family from Birmingham (West Midlands not Alabama).
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>> I don't understand what all the song and dance is about. Even if we end
>> up with such products from the USA, then the consumer doesn't have to buy them.
Here are some reasons why we should be sceptical about chlorine washed chicken.
theconversation.com/chlorine-washed-chicken-qanda-food-safety-expert-explains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921
Basically it covers up for sloppy and inhumane practices.
And if we were to allow it what are odds on vendors being obliged to (a) state clearly that these chookies were washed in chlorine and (b) spell out why chlorine washing is suspect.
Much more likely that trade agreement would prevent any overt labelling of chlorine washing. As long as it complies with regulations then requiring labelling of how compliance is achieved would be deemed a non tariff barrier......
Same applies to beef that's loaded with hormones.
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I think we did this in another thread, isn't salad vegetables in the eu washed in the same or very similar washing process?
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>> I think we did this in another thread, isn't salad vegetables in the eu washed
>> in the same or very similar washing process?
I think that is right. Salad leaves, or at least some of them, are rinsed in a chlorine solution to kill off any bacterial contamination from insects, birds etc while the plant is in the ground.
Chlorine itself though is not the issue. Any residue is well below harm level.
The problem is that chlorine washing is seen in Europe as a countermeasure for poor farming practice (gross overcrowding etc) and ill managed abattoirs and risk that meat has high concentrations of e-coli and other nasties.
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>> Chlorine itself though is not the issue. Any residue is well below harm level.
That's what I thought. I think alot of people have just heard the phrase for the first time and think it's some sort of poison we'll all dying from without looking into the actual issue.
>> The problem is that chlorine washing is seen in Europe as a countermeasure for poor
>> farming practice (gross overcrowding etc) and ill managed abattoirs and risk that meat has high
>> concentrations of e-coli and other nasties.
I wonder which member states farming /abattoir practices this was brought in as a response to?
As long as the US have good standards in the food chain it's not something I'll worry about.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 16 Aug 19 at 10:23
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>> As long as the US have good standards in the food chain it's not something
>> I'll worry about.
To my mind the need for chicken to be chlorine washed is ample evidence that US does NOT have good standards in the food chain.
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To my mind the need for chicken to be chlorine washed is ample evidence that
>> US does NOT have good standards in the food chain.
>>
Be many of us eat salad, should we stop as it's evidence of poor standards?
Or perhaps they go for a belt and braces approach?
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>> Be many of us eat salad, should we stop as it's evidence of poor standards?
I think comparing salad and chicken is apples/pears territory.
Salad, unless produced in places like Thanet Earth*, is out in the open with insects, bird poop and soil borne pathogens, a potential risk that cannot be mitigated by better husbandry.
By comparison American chicken is farmed in indoor sheds at population densities and with practices long banned in Europe. Slaughtering and butchering practices are also slack in ways that would not be tolerated in EU. Chlorine washing mitigates for those poor practices. It's not 100% though, US rates of Salmonella, E-Coli etc are way ahead of UK.
*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanet_Earth
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>> >> Be many of us eat salad, should we stop as it's evidence of poor
>> standards?
>>
>> I think comparing salad and chicken is apples/pears territory.
>>
>> Salad, unless produced in places like Thanet Earth*, is out in the open with insects,
>> bird poop and soil borne pathogens, a potential risk that cannot be mitigated by better
>> husbandry.
Not really it's a reasonable comparison. Its the end aim that matters, are the products safer or not?
>> By comparison American chicken is farmed in indoor sheds at population densities and with practices
>> long banned in Europe. Slaughtering and butchering practices are also slack in ways that would
>> not be tolerated in EU. Chlorine washing mitigates for those poor practices. It's not 100%
>> though, US rates of Salmonella, E-Coli etc are way ahead of UK.
>>
I can't say I've looked into such things. But I will say people are more interested than ever about where their food comes from.
>> *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanet_Earth
interesting, never heard of that place before.
>>
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>> Not really it's a reasonable comparison. Its the end aim that matters, are the products
>> safer or not?
In my mind there's a difference between a precaution against bird poop that falls naturally on stuff grown outside and a fallible control against birds that poop all over each other because they live in grossly overcrowded insanitary cages.
We can though agree to differ.
>> >> *en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanet_Earth
>>
>> interesting, never heard of that place before.
We drove past it while out and about during a caravan break in Kent at which point I vaguely remembered some press coverage about it's contribution to light pollution. The place is well signposted for benefit of inbound/outbound logistics if you're in the area.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 17 Aug 19 at 20:43
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The
>> place is well signposted for benefit of inbound/outbound logistics if you're in the area.
>>
Thanks but a giant greenhouse isn't on my to do list. Not yet anyway ;-)
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>> As long as the US have good standards in the food chain it's not something
>> I'll worry about.
Ha ha ha. Worry. The US has essentially no poultry welfare standards.
UK apparently has some of the best welfare standards in the world, but you still wouldn't wnat to be a chicken:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/24/real-cost-of-roast-chicken-animal-welfare-farms
The market pushes standards as low as the laws and enforcement allow.
theconversation.com/chlorine-washed-chicken-qanda-food-safety-expert-explains-why-us-poultry-is-banned-in-the-eu-81921
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As I said I've not massively looked into it but there's a bit of water to go under the bridge before/if any of this comes to pass.
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>> As I said I've not massively looked into it but there's a bit of water
>> to go under the bridge before/if any of this comes to pass.
The water has chlorine in it because the bridge is near the chicken plant.
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At the end of the day the Americans will expect us to play by their standards and regulations not ours, and because their economy and scale dwarves ours, its a one way street.
Sorry Project fear fact again.
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..yeah. But we'll have taken back control...
:-(
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>> ..yeah. But we'll have taken back control...
But lost the plot
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...to paraphrase The Who.
"Meet the new boss........worse than the old boss"
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>As long as the US have good standards in the food chain it's not something I'll worry about.
I liked the law in the US that required the small print on food additives to include possible side effects.
There was a brand of potato chips that claimed to be fried in some sort of oil that had zero calories because it passed through the gut undigested. I picked up a pack in our local HEB store and read the back of the pack. When I got to "flatulance and anal leakage" I decided not to bother.
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> I liked the law in the US that required the small print on food additives
>> to include possible side effects.
Same as all the drug ads, usually the last line was 'may cause death' even for the most mundane pill.
When I got to "flatulance and anal leakage" I decided not to bother.
>>
Sounds just the trick if you're a bit blocked up!
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>> When I got to "flatulance and anal leakage" I decided not to bother.
>> >>
>>
>> Sounds just the trick if you're a bit blocked up!
>>
I guess, if the leakage doesn't work the flatuance will "fire it out". Don't smoke or it may cause death!
:-)
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 17 Aug 19 at 21:53
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>> Nothing constitutionally wrong with that, no coup, just a realignment of the Commons.
I know you are technically correct Bromp, but that's I don't think that is what the lay-person will think.
Most will see a change of Govt, from Tory to Labour without a general election and I suspect that many of the newspapers will sell it that was as well - remember 2010 when New Labour stays in office to care-take the Govt. whilst the Torys put a government together - that was derided by the press at the time.
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>> I know you are technically correct Bromp, but that's I don't think that is what
>> the lay-person will think.
>>
>> Most will see a change of Govt, from Tory to Labour without a general election
>> and I suspect that many of the newspapers will sell it that was as well
The newspapers are big players but social media is even more so and the latter is even less principled and regulated than the former.
If people act on belief over fact then the keystone of post WW2 democracy crumbles.
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I know you are technically correct Bromp, but that's I don't think that is what
>> the lay-person will think.
>>
>> Most will see a change of Govt, from Tory to Labour without a general election
>> and I suspect that many of the newspapers will sell it that was as well
>> - remember 2010 when New Labour stays in office to care-take the Govt. whilst the
>> Torys put a government together - that was derided by the press at the time.
>>
Precisely, there's a whole load of uproar over a change of PM without an election, a change of government without one. Well I think they'll be a lot of unhappy campers, to put it mildly.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 16 Aug 19 at 07:22
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Let's just hope Corbyn doesn't make Nineteen Propositions. Then we really might be in trouble...
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>> Let's just hope Corbyn doesn't make Nineteen Propositions. Then we really might be in trouble...
>>
Nineteen propositions?
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>> Nineteen propositions?
Exactly. And if Boris says "Nolumus Leges Angliae mutari", and he might, being Boris, it will get worse.
Sorry, making assumptions. Start of the English Civil War, when they had some serious stuff to worry about.
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>>
>> >> Nineteen propositions?
>>
>> Exactly. And if Boris says "Nolumus Leges Angliae mutari", and he might, being Boris, it
>> will get worse.
>>
>> Sorry, making assumptions. Start of the English Civil War, when they had some serious stuff
>> to worry about.
>>
Nope, sorry not the foggiest what all that means.
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>> Nope, sorry not the foggiest what all that means.
Cut and pasted because its an excellent precis
The Nineteen Propositions were a set of demands made on King Charles I of England by the English Parliament on 1 June 1642. They were designed to limit the powers of the crown and were sent to the King at York. The King's Answer to the propositions was read in Parliament on 21 June, the King summarizing his rejection of them with the words "Nolumus Leges Angliae mutari" (We are unwilling to change the laws of England). Their rejection represented the beginning of the English Civil War.
You need to watch the 1970 film Cromwell, with Richard Harris as the lord protector, and Alec Guinness as King Charles I,
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It's spooky how much Guinness actually resembled Charles I, isn't it.
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It was
Its even spookier how it parallels todays situation, two entrenched dik-eds vying for control
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Yep. Put similar personalities into similar situations and they will tend to react in similar ways.
Which is how we learn something from history, including the fact that we don't learn from history.
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>> >>
>> Which is how we learn something from history, including the fact that we don't learn
>> from history.
>>
History is comprised of a series of accidents which nobody could foresee, but with hindsight were entirely predictable.
Hindsight of course being something often mistaken for intelligence.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 16 Aug 19 at 17:11
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>
>> History is comprised of a series of accidents which nobody could foresee, but with hindsight
>> were entirely predictable.
>>
>> Hindsight of course being something often mistaken for intelligence.
>>
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory
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You need to watch the 1970 film Cromwell, with Richard Harris as the lord protector,
>> and Alec Guinness as King Charles I,
>>
>>
I'm pretty sure I have, although it was some time ago probably why it didn't mean anything to me.
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The recent series on BBC 4 Charles I Downfall of a King covers this very well,and brings about certain parallels with our current situation. Well worth a watch and interesting to think what side you would have been on. For all my belief on Parliamentqry Democracy strangely I think my heart would have been with the King.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006pb0
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From 20+ petrol refineries in the 1970s to 7 now, operation Yellow Hammer expects a further 2 to close - oh joy.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/no-deal-brexit-key-points-of-operation-yellowhammer-report
I have been to the Stanlow refinery a few times. It's quite a place but a bit it's a bit worrying when the first thing they do is show you how to get to the emergency refuge bunkers.
One interesting social point - the canteen was open to all staff and visitors and was free. The owners felt that staff that were looked after preformed safer. (This was 2013 under the new ownership.)
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Only one of the jokes in the chart for 'Best of the Fringe' is Brexit related:
“What’s driving Brexit?”
“From here it looks like it’s probably the Duke of Edinburgh.”
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According to the Telegraph, the Poet Laureate is refusing to write a poem to celebrate Brexit day. How can we possibly cope with a shortage of poems? O me miserum!
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>>the Poet Laureate is refusing to write a poem to celebrate Brexit day
What b***** idiot asked him to write on in the first place?
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Not the fringe. This one's Facebook:
Q: Have you been involved in a car crash that wasn't your fault
A: Yes; Brexit.
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www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556
FIdiots.
No doubt a section of the population will be cheering about the EU citizens in the UK getting grief and won't care about the British citizens in the EU.
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You can see where Bozo is going with this, trying to pressure the EU and make it "the EU's fault" if they do not agree to whatever unicorn he wants as a deal.
Problem is, I can't see it working and it should be the last thing we actually want to do. He looks like a desperate man coming up with ideas on the hoof, which would be fine if they didn't simultaneously come out of his mouth.
He seems to me to be reliant on sidelining parliament too. Not only do MPs object to no-deal, they can't actually agree on anything else on the evidence so far.
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>> www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49393556
>>
>> FIdiots.
It's already well under way.
EU workers' access to Universal Credit is tightly restricted. They cannot get it as job seekers and if the DWP finds they are a job seeker (rather than, say, with reserved rights as a 'resting' worker) they're cut off from rest of hierarchy such claiming derivative rights as a carer and various other options*.
Even if they've been here five years with a provable work history for entirety of that time, and thus have a permanent right to reside, they get the heave ho. If they can get their contribution/PAYE history then a DWP review might open the door but even that's no guarantee. And you can prove your history once only to be asked to jump through same hoops again in six months.
Theoretically, if they've been present in UK for five years they can get settled status, but even then proving you've got it can be difficult as you don't get a card or passport stamp - just e-mailed confirmation that there's a digital record.
You can print that record but no guarantee DWP will recognise as 'you could have fasified it; everybody with a computer has a printing set that makes John Bull's product well redundant.
The hostile environment is still ballooning.
It's an ill wind though; sorting this stuff out keeps me in holiday money.....
And of course once the shutters come down on 31/10 then you'll need proof of status to get a job, rent a home or access healthcare.
Windrush Priti Patel style. And she's too thick to see the point (or the irony given her own heritage).....
*There are ways/means round this but they're complex and need legal advice.
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I am in Dublin tonight.
From chatting with locals I get the feeling that BJ isn’t the most popular person here.
Was listening to Vine on R2 before I left and some twit was going on about how we fed ourselves in WW2. He seemed to have forgotten about all of the convoys delivering essentials including food.
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 19 Aug 19 at 23:40
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>> I am in Dublin tonight.
>>
>> From chatting with locals .......
Confine yourself to talking about the rugby and watch their little faces light up at the prospect of beating England - again!
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>You can print that record but no guarantee DWP will recognise as 'you could have fasified it; everybody with a
>computer has a printing set that makes John Bull's product well redundant.
Why do you need hardcopy if there is a 'digital record'?
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>> Why do you need hardcopy if there is a 'digital record'?
Tell that to those where the DWP (or an employer or landlord) want proof of settled status.
Whatever the theory the system's not working.
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>Tell that to those where the DWP (or an employer or landlord) want proof of settled status.
I'm not telling anyone, It was a question!
Who maintains the 'digital records'? Are you saying that the DWP cannot access their own data?
Last edited by: Kevin on Tue 20 Aug 19 at 01:42
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>> >Tell that to those where the DWP (or an employer or landlord) want proof of
>> settled status.
>>
>> I'm not telling anyone, It was a question!
Sorry, I mistook the tone of the inquiry.
>> Who maintains the 'digital records'? Are you saying that the DWP cannot access their own
>> data?
The EU Settlement Scheme is owned by the Home Office who issue the successful applicant with a letter. However that letter is not 'biometric information' and is therefore only supporting evidence rather than proof. There is apparently a tool that allows DWP Decision Makers to exchange information with the home office. There is evidence, at least at an anecdotal level, that DWP staff are unaware/not using.
Yesterday's announcement was completely contrary to what has been said previously. The message than was that, even in the unlikely event of 'no deal' then people here legitimately would have until 31/12/2020 to apply for Settled (or pre-Settled) status. Suddenly it seems that in order to obtain (or possibly retain) work and to re-enter UK if you've been home any current EU worker may need Settled Status by 31/10/19.
We think about one million have already obtained settled/pre settled status. Leaving approx two million still to apply/be processed. That will be a big ask of the Home Office.
The two million almost certainly include a significant cohort of the 'difficult to reach'. Even amongst migrants with good English and solid employment etc history there is still a widespread ignorance of the Settlement Scheme. I've already lost count of the number who look/sound completely blank when asked if they've applied.
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Bozo talking this evening....
af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1VA1TA
“We think there’s a big opportunity now for everybody to come together, take out that backstop and then ... in the course of the negotiations on the free trade deal ... which we’re going to do after Oct. 31, we will be bringing forward all the ways in which we can maintain frictionless trade at the Northern Irish border.”
Aside from anything else, if we leave with no deal on October 31, which is what he says he will do if the backstop issue is not resolved, then what's this negotiating we're going to be doing *after* October 31?
Surely he means "which we WOULD LIKE TO DO after Oct. 31 if we get a deal"?
Also, I think Sen. Neale Richmond's tweet seems to have gone largely unnoticed...
?1) The backstop is not anti democratic, that’s new found spin
2) Mr Johnson voted for it
3) Goodwill isn’t enough
4) The backstop is an insurance policy
5) The majority in Northern Ireland support the backstop
6) The backstop protects not threatens the #GFA
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 20 Aug 19 at 20:52
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It may well be that Bozo's obvious willingness to walk blindly into the unknown might actually be the one thing that causes other people (the EU and UK politicians) to save us by giving him what he wants.
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Were I a young man again I'd fancy a crack at the intelligence service now you can apply rather than waiting for the tap on the arm from your Cambridge lecturer. Not greatly paid but different.
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Brexit Discussion - Volume 81 - tyrednemotional
