***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 64 *****
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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on. It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
We will not give notice that we have deleted anything. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted. The select few who are unable to have a reasonable discussion, cannot contain their anger, be keyboard warriors, trolls, etc. should not be allowed to spoil the enjoyment for others.
Also bear in mind that genuine posts 'may' well end up also getting deleted. I apologise in advance for this, but we simply do not have the time to pick through and be selective with anything we delete. If your reply is tagged onto an argument, etc. then due to the nature of the forum software, chances are it will also vanish.
Finally, if it becomes too time consuming to moderate these threads, then we might ask that Brexit discussion stop altogether.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper.
Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Dave.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 5 Nov 18 at 09:58
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As it's Halloween, I thought this film might be appropriate watching....
www.imdb.com/title/tt8425058/?ref_=nv_sr_1
When it's out in a year or so's time!
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Me>>>> [Spanish poverty] would be on account of the intransigence of the EU
No FM2R>>Meh, not really. And certainly not wholly. It is us that is being intransigent about the ECJ,
>>which even non-EU members accept in this area.
Yes, but try convincing a Spanish bar-owner in Barcelona. Who would like to leave not merely the EU, but Spain too.
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>> Yes, but try convincing a Spanish bar-owner in Barcelona. Who would like to leave not
>> merely the EU, but Spain too.
Think you'll find that your La Rambla bar owner does want to leave Spain, but remain part of the EU.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 1 Nov 18 at 11:33
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>>Think you'll find that your La Rambla bar owner does want to leave Spain, but remain part of the EU.
Another omelette that nobody can unscramble... Just wait until it's the EU who have taken away his English hen parties... a populist nationalist movement that isn't even allowed to vote (despite asking the EU for help on this point) seems unlikely to stay wedded to the EU for long.
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>>Yes, but try convincing a Spanish bar-owner in Barcelona. Who would like to leave not merely the EU, but Spain too
Sorry, I don't understand. How is the Spanish bar owner relevant to the UK's intransigence on ECJ jurisdiction? Or to the fact that some non-EU countries accept its jurisdiction in some areas?
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Sorry, I don't understand. I don't know what it has to do with the ECJ. You're getting bogged down in the detail, and people are being paid to do that so we don't have to.
Remember, if it all goes wrong we won't be flying in Spain in April. And even you don't think that will be a problem.
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I was talking about the ECJ and you brought in the Spanish barman. So now I have no idea what you're going on about.
Best you come back when you've got it straight in your mind. And past experience and observation suggests that before lunch is probably best.
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What about the so called British expats living in Spain retired are they leaving the foreign shores and returning to the UK.? The majority of them can't speak a word of Spanish.Maybe a few words.
According to Theresa May may only skilled workers are going to be allowed to stay in the U.K.
Good luck with that one.This Brexit saga is a open- ended discussion and we keep going round in circles.
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Looks as though Home Office including comments by Sajid Javid have contradicted line Caroline Nokes took before the select commitee:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/01/home-office-caroline-nokes-eu-checks-immigration-brexit-employers-right-to-work
So she's incompetent and/or was making policy on the hoof.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 1 Nov 18 at 14:16
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FFS will their incompetence never end?
I hope they have thought about the other half of the agreement and made sure *that they have agreement * that it will the same for Brits abroad in the EU.
What a f.stupid mess.
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"I hope they have thought about the other half of the agreement and made sure *that they have agreement * that it will the same for Brits abroad in the EU."
Something I'm really starting to worry about.
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Searched your ancestry for justification for an EU passport yet?
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>>Searched your ancestry for justification for an EU passport yet?
Yup, and no dice.
Parents Scottish, grandparents Scottish and English.
1 great-grandparent was Irish but that misses out by a generation.
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Really? Are you sure?
Blimey, condolences.
;-)
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"Really? Are you sure?"
Grandparents, I hastily add. From Rhyl, I believe, so posthumous condolences to them...
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I went to Rhyl once. Haven't ever felt the urge to go back.
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Rhyl !! As Rob Brydon said (in Rhyl a couple of weeks ago) Not Llandudno is it, but at least it's not Wrexham
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>> Welsh, unfortunately...
>>
Best make an honest woman of your young Polish lady then.
Or this:
euobserver.com/justice/117551
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>>we are in a weak position here
It is far, far different to the position that many told us to expect of countries flocking to our door, desperate to have trade deals with us.
We are in a position of need, and that is never a good place to be in a negotiation, especially if the other party knows it.
This matter isn't directly related to Brexit. And the objection is not that the UK is saying it will do something, but that it is saying it will do something alone. [Did anybody believe that outside the EU we were going to be able to act unilaterally]. Taxing sales rather than profit is a bit of an iffy thing to do, as well. Certainly it needs careful thinking about and coordination, otherwise we'll get out manoeuvred by the companies themselves.
What the US could perhaps do, knowing our need for a trade deal, is blackmail us into dropping any unilateral move.
All in all though, I doubt this will have any impact on Brexit negotiations at all. Far more likely is that Brexit negotiations will stop this move.
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Arron Banks faces Brexit referendum spending probe www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46056337
Murkier and murkier. Kind of ironic that it looks like the Leave campaign seems to have been funded by foreign money.
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But he might get into trouble and others. The vote stands. It might be ironic and it turns out they lied and took money from overseas to pay for the campaign. But what can be changed? Nothing I am assuming.
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It is for parliament to decide if there is any action to be taken on the referendum but this need to be investigated thoroughly and if it found that Banks his friends are indeed guilty of breaking the law then they are exposed and punished accordingly.
Banks is trying to bluster his way out of this and claiming the allegations are purely political when it looks very much like his actions were criminal.
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If he is found guilty Leave voters will no doubt see it as Remain voters getting revenge or something, and will refuse to accept he did anything wrong.
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"If he is found guilty Leave voters will no doubt see it as Remain voters getting revenge or something, and will refuse to accept he did anything wrong."
Did David Cameron personally pay for the 'remain' leaflets delivered to every door? If not, who did?
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Presumably you have no problem if the Leave campaign is found to have been illegally funded by foreign money Haywain.
If the Remain campaign was found to be funded illegally in that manner I would equally expect that the wrongdoers are held to account. You either believe in the rule of law or you don’t.
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From Haywain's post I don't think they care if the official Leave campaign spent money provided from lets say Russia (alleged not proven).
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I ask again, who funded the 'remain' campaign leaflets? If it was the taxpayer, no one asked me.
BTW, Bob Geldhof did more to influence my decision than Arron Banks though, frankly, I didn't need advice from anyone.
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It was the tax-payer, that was because a democratically elected Government's policy was to remain (for the good of the country apparently) - to leave wasn't until the referendum. The Policy is to leave now, so no doubt they'll fund a leaflet to leave if there's a second referendum.
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"It was the tax-payer,"
Thank you.
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Surely the tax-payer didn't fund the Remain campaign leaflets?
Yes the taxpayer funded the goverment's so-called "facts" leaflet, the content of which was a travesty.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 1 Nov 18 at 22:31
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So you admit you don't care if say the Russians funded the leave campaign?
You do sound a bit bitter and twisted and that you voted to leave regardless ;-)
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"So you admit you don't care if say the Russians funded the leave campaign?"
I don't care if the Martians funded the 'leave' campaign.
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Thanks for your honest response. So you unfortunately don't care if the campaign was illegally funded. I find that disappointing.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 1 Nov 18 at 22:22
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>> "So you admit you don't care if say the Russians funded the leave campaign?"
>>
>> I don't care if the Martians funded the 'leave' campaign.
>>
So you don't care if you have a dictatorship by proxy so long as it achieves the result you wanted?
Allowing foreigners to fund the campaign and change peoples mind is a dangerous road to follow and next time it could be funding fascists or communists.
Of course if you don't care that suggests that you might be a bit shallow.
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"So you don't care if you have a dictatorship by proxy"
Ah, you mean the EU?
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>> "So you don't care if you have a dictatorship by proxy"
>>
>> Ah, you mean the EU?
Yeah the dictatorship where you were given the opportunity to vote for your MEP? you did vote of course didn't you?
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"Yeah the dictatorship where you were given the opportunity to vote for your MEP? you did vote of course didn't you?"
I had to check my records to see when the last EU elections were held - I see that it was on 22/05/14. I can't remember anything particular about that day - I can't remember what the weather was like, or who the candidates were, or who I voted for. As you well-know Z, I try and do my bit for the maintenance of democracy in this country by taking the role of Presiding Officer at a local polling station; I would therefore have used a postal vote as I would be away from my appointed polling station. I'm sure that I would have voted because it was instilled into me by my parents that people fought and died so that I could have a vote and not be part of some large 'European Project' as J-C J now calls it.
At one of the EU elections - it could have been 2014 or, maybe, 2009 - I remember one old boy turning away from the polling booth, screwing his face up and muttering "it comes to something when the only name that you recognise on that list is Arthur Scargill". You gotta larf!
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Nigel Farage has been a very successful MEP amongst the other UKIP MEPs standing up for the UK. Not.
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Would you have cared the referendum had gone the other way and it was discovered that Germany had secretly funded the Remain campaign?
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"You do sound a bit bitter and twisted and that you voted to leave regardless"
Why would I be 'bitter and twisted'? You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong but ISTR that, in the referendum, the country decided to leave, not stay. Are you quite sure that you aren't the bitter and twisted one?
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Why does UK consider Russia as enemy rather than a friend?
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Because Russia acts like an enemy?
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Because Russia considers us an enemy?
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I was fascinated by Russian history and architecture after visiting St Petersburg. The grandeur surpassed those in Europe! Heard that Moscow is even more grand. Plan to visit Moscow some day (need to apply for visa).
If you have not been to Russia, I encourage you to visit. You can visit St Petersburg visa free for 72-hours if arriving by cruise ship (that's how I visited there).
What I find odd is that Britian fought wars with Germany and now both are friends(!) Yet, Russia, who was responsible for defeating both Hitler and Napoleon, is considered an enemy of Britain.
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>> What I find odd is that Britian fought wars with Germany and now both are
>> friends(!) Yet, Russia, who was responsible for defeating both Hitler and Napoleon, is considered an
>> enemy of Britain.
Well, you don't get German spies killing people on the streets of Salisbury or attempting to flying nuclear bombers in to our airspace or hacking our computer networks or sending subs to cut our undersea cables, or shoot down passenger jets (twice).
And the Germany of today isn't the Germany of yesterday. Geographically its the same place, with a democratically elected government unlike Russia.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Nov 18 at 12:32
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>> Well, you don't get German spies killing people on the streets of Salisbury or attempting
>> to flying nuclear bombers in to our airspace or hacking our computer networks or sending
>> subs to cut our undersea cables,
Err we - The Uk routinely overflew Russia on spy missions, a task to Americans took over, sometimes with RAF pilots on secondment. While the Americans and the British dont cut undersea cables, we have both broken them open and tapped them. And I would confidently say we are hacking the Russians, but much more discretely.
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>> I would
>> confidently say we are hacking the Russians, but much more discretely.
I hope so, it would be negligent not to. And they, knowing that, would be negligent not to create disinformation. And we, knowing that they know...and that they know that we know that they know...
I'm pretty sure that we are safe from being attacked with conventional weapons in an all-out war. It would be too easy just to shut down the internet, the power grid, hospitals, logistics (therefore food, fuel and medical supplies) and watch the country self destruct in days.
Assuming reasonable parity, it's probably as good a mutual deterrent as the nukes.
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>> What I find odd is that Britian fought wars with Germany and now both are
>> friends(!) Yet, Russia, who was responsible for defeating both Hitler and Napoleon, is considered an
>> enemy of Britain.
You really need to study up on European History. Since the 1917 Russian revolution, Russia has always been our enemy. Killing lots of family members of the British royal family didn't help matters much.
During the Second world Russia flipped from enemy (at the start they were more or less an axis power) to an allied power. However all through that allied time, they were "the enemy of my enemy" not "my friend".
Some quotes by Churchill
Never forget that Bolsheviks are crocodiles….I cannot feel the slightest trust or confidence in them. Force and facts are their only realities.†—CIRCA 1942;
*****
“It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe.†—21 OCTOBER 1942,
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“[After the war,] what will lie between the white snows of Russia and the white cliffs of Dover?†—CHEQUERS, 23 FEBRUARY 1945
and of course the famous Iron Curtain speech
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2PUIQpAEAQ
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Have we been hacked - gone quiet.
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"Have we been hacked - gone quiet."
It must have been your rather astute conversation-stopper about Nigel Farage.
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>>What I find odd is that Britian fought wars with Germany and now both are friends(!) Yet, Russia, who was responsible for defeating both Hitler and Napoleon, is considered an enemy of Britain.
Why do you think that is odd? By what metric do you consider Britain and Germany friends? By what metric do you consider Russia and Britain enemies?
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>> Why would I be 'bitter and twisted'? You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong
>> but ISTR that, in the referendum, the country decided to leave, not stay. Are you
>> quite sure that you aren't the bitter and twisted one?
That would be the referendum that looks increasingly as though it was bought by 'big money' whether domestic or foreign?
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"That would be the referendum that looks increasingly as though it was bought by 'big money' whether domestic or foreign?"
Are you referring to the big money behind the leave campaign, or the big money behind the remain campaign? Both sides produced sets of lies, and punters chose which lies suited their already established prejudices .......... or maybe some of us thought it through for ourselves.
Admit it, Brompt, you're one of the bright sparks who took counsel from Bob Geldof ;-)
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The matter being investigated is was some of the funding to the Leave campaign illegal and possibly provided by a foreign country.
Surely this is something of concern to anyone who cares for our democracy whatever side they voted for.
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>> Surely this is something of concern to anyone who cares for our democracy whatever side
>> they voted for.
Yes. Well it is to me.
I am not sure that means a referendum should be re-run. Just how many of our elections would stand if the telling of lies caused them to be invalid? And, from the perspective of the result, does it really matter who funded the lies?
Clearly illegal, and these involved should be prosecuted and punished. But I don't really think it invalidates the referendum.
Amongst all the reasons that the Leave side won the referendum, I'm not sure I see "lies sponsored by foreigners" being very high on the list of significance.
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As I said in my original post my concern is that this matter is properly investigated and anyone guilty of a crime punished. Whether there are any ramifications as far as Brexit is concerned is for parliament to decide.
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If there was Russian money or influence in the Brexit campaign, how did that actually persuade anyone to vote leave, who wouldn't otherwise have done so?
Last edited by: Duncan on Fri 2 Nov 18 at 22:29
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Mainly by advertising I guess on which political campaigns spend millions because it is highly effective as in other walks of life.
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So Haywain when you say: "or maybe some of us thought it through for ourselves. " What did you think should happen with the border problem between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Clearly you thought this through so care to share your thoughts on that one.
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"So Haywain ...........so care to share your thoughts on that one."
Let me take you back to April/May/June 2016, the weeks leading up to the referendum. I’m sure you remember tv reporters out in the streets asking people how they were going to vote ……… and most didn’t have a clue; they all said ‘but we don’t have the facts, how can we make a decision? All the while they were being showered with information from both ‘leave’ and ‘stay’ campaigns, some of which was true, some of it was false and most was exaggerated. It was obvious to most people that, after 40 years of increasing entanglement with the EU, then leaving wouldn’t be straightforward and, as time moved on, it wasn’t going to get any easier. How could you possibly weigh all this up???
This difficulty in decision making put me in mind of a very wise observation made by a friend in a different industry when, after some 20 years in the ‘technical’ department, I moved to ‘marketing’. ‘You know, H’ he said, ‘you are going to find it very different, and sometimes very uncomfortable. When you make a technical decision, then you have at least 95% of the information on which to base that decision; in marketing, you will find that you may have only 5% and that is likely to be changing - you just have to wet your finger, stick it in the air, and hope for the best.’
It was a similar scenario before the referendum – people were faced with too much incomputable information to make a decision and they were uncomfortable with that situation. So what to do – even with my massive brain I couldn’t work out all that detail either?
In the end, I went back to the four basic freedoms that form the foundation of the EU, and then it was easy. I did not agree with ‘freedom of movement’ and an open borders policy. A country without a border isn’t a country and I consider that to be fundamental.
I have mentioned on here before that I have friends nearby who complain about their village doubling in size; I just shrug my shoulders and remind them that they voted for freedom of movement. Doh!
As for the Irish border – that is a detail along with the countless other details that will have to be sorted out. Of course, though, the longer we stayed in, the more difficult it would become to get out.
What, made you vote to remain, rtj, were you afraid of change?
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One thing I think is a good thing is freedom of movement - so we disagree on a fundamental principle there. That is why I wanted to remain in the EU.
I think the EU still needs to change and MEPs could start to make a change but we as a country voted in too many idiots like Farage who thought it was a joke and didn't do anything for the UK apart from making us look stupid and a joke, him in particular.
We could have had more people in the organisations that run the EU I guess and had more infuence.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 3 Nov 18 at 11:35
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>> I have mentioned on here before that I have friends nearby who complain about their
>> village doubling in size; I just shrug my shoulders and remind them that they voted
>> for freedom of movement. Doh!
I seriously doubt that freedom of movement is much of a factor affecting village growth in Constable country. Much more about about indigenes moving from big towns to villages in search of a rural idyll. They still commute to Cambridge, Peterborough or London. Exactly same factors here in Northants. Easy commute within a ring bounded by London, CAmbridge, Leicester, Coventry/Brum, Oxford and back across to London Has been going on for whole of thirty years we've been here.
>> As for the Irish border – that is a detail along with the countless other
>> details that will have to be sorted out. Of course, though, the longer we stayed
>> in, the more difficult it would become to get out.
There's reported to be progress on this but 'constructive ambiguity' only stretches so far and May cannot afford to upset the DUP.
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"I seriously doubt that freedom of movement is much of a factor affecting village growth in Constable country."
I'm not talking about Constable country - I'm talking about mid-Suffolk, though rapid housing development seems to be happening everywhere.
"Much more about about indigenes moving from big towns to villages in search of a rural idyll."
They are being displaced/replaced by whom?
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I don't know why people dislike immigration so much. Sure, some of them are simply racist, but they can't all be, surely?
It is estimated that in 2016 - 2017 EU immigrants made a £4.7bn contribution to public finances.
In 2016/17 an EU immigrant contributed and average of £2,300 more to UK public finances than the average UK born adult. Each UK born adult contributed £70 less than the average and each non-European immigrant contributed £800 less than the average
Last year estimated net non-EU immigration was 227,000 increasing year on year.
The contribution of all immigrants that arrived in 2016 over the lifetime of their stay in the UK is estimated to be £27bn.
The average European immigrant arriving in 2016 will contribute a net £78,000, the average non-EU immigrant will contribute £28,000 and the average UK citizen will contribute £0.
Had immigration been frozen in 1990, then today there would have been a loss of £175bn from the GDP over the last 15 years. Today the GDP would be approximately 9% smaller than it actually is.
Stopping immigration would be a financial mistake for this country. All immigration is financially good for the UK, EU immigration is more financially valuable than non-EU immigration.
So I am not clear how exchanging the EU freedom of movement to the equivalent of today's non-EU immigration approach will make things better?
By and large trying to economically, financially or socially justify a choice for "Leave" is futile. Essentially "Leave" was simply a personal and emotional preference. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, that's what voting is for. But it does show that there is not much chance of compromise.
Figures from the following; (Fill your boots.....)
The FT
migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-fiscal-impact-of-immigration-in-the-uk/
d2rpq8wtqka5kg.cloudfront.net/460295/open20181002110700.pdf?Expires=1541274711&Signature=CqvnDN6~yxfqnt3tf4mp~61Pt7OE6rV-VqiwjCiBr9fYtW9H0NBuqvC45rA5KJAI-OcFt8Yuw1Xv-GFAYxFY-JIP6GJ3EFVx2Zli99WPKu8alSfij8Ar~TR8kRZMC4-q9Es44aYrewepQTnmxwFCyVmihTPE6H-SKC4JuZuukY0b1c-uhMF3OrAFs6vSA-IvASW9BE~ekbmCUwL4GDwmKOVYFBExmLrW~opKI0tdMBQ8FTKQWeT-ioE3EH9Ib1bN7I8vyFcAq2KDZNR1xLVmpgGPvySVWZ5lylssygf0CZzYJeQK6JZ2rsbtTr9XpBWrtGH6iclxbLZBbb6TiTr-Qg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJVGCNMR6FQV6VYIA
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"I don't know why people dislike immigration`'
You really should distinguish between 'immigration' and 'open borders'.
Please correct me if I'm wildly wrong but the last I heard of Germany's 1.2M(?) recent arrivals was that 13% had found employment; I cannot imagine that this would be much of a boost to their economy.
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>>You really should distinguish between 'immigration' and 'open borders'.
If I had meant "I don't know why people dislike open borders" then I would have written it. If you look closely you will see that I didn't.
I have no idea of any facts or figures about Germany's immigration or employment levels. Nor much interest.
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"Yes you are wildly wrong."
Can you summarise for me, please? The link is behind a paywall.
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Yes you are wildly wrong.
There will be even more work for them after Brexit.
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>> Please correct me if I'm wildly wrong but the last I heard of Germany's 1.2M(?)
>> recent arrivals was that 13% had found employment; I cannot imagine that this would be
>> much of a boost to their economy.
Interestingly, because we were not in Shengen and did not have open borders, we did not get 1.2 million recent arrivals.
You really should distinguish between immigration and open borders. Or at least some basic comprehension about it would be helpful. I would have though it would have been obvious while you were standing in a passport queue to get into the country from Europe, but clearly it passed you by.
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>>A country without a border isn’t a country
Have you told the Scotch that?
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"Have you told the Scotch that?"
I think they prefer to be called 'Scots'.
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I'll take that as a 'no'.
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"I'll take that as a 'no'."
You started any wars lately?
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I don't understand what that means. You just seem to be trying to dodge the point that it appears you do not consider Scotland a country and I think the Scotch would disagree with you.
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*Scots. Scotch is a type of Whiskey !
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>> *Scots. Scotch is a type of Whiskey !
Did you do that on purpose? Whisky!
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''In the English language, the word Scotch is a term to describe a thing from Scotland, such as Scotch whisky. However, when referring to people, the preferred term is Scots. Many Scottish people find the term Scotch to be offensive when applied to people.
people of Scotland - Wikipedia''
Pat
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I wonder if there is a possible claim to Protected Designation of Origin for Scotch Eggs?
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All of which does not address the point as to whether or not the Scotch believe that Scotland is a country even though it doesn't have a border.
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ISO 3166 recognises Scotland as country so I'm sure that most Scots do as well.
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But seemingly Haywane does not.
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Well seems it was fact-checked for him anyway. They'll be off as soon as they can I guess as well.It's odd how people who want to leave the EU, especially the more extreme ones, find it difficult to understand why there is a desire for Scotland and Wales to leave the Union. You'd think they'd be happy for them.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 4 Nov 18 at 15:47
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>> Well seems it was fact-checked for him anyway. They'll be off as soon as they
>> can I guess as well.It's odd how people who want to leave the EU, especially
>> the more extreme ones, find it difficult to understand why there is a desire for
>> Scotland and Wales to leave the Union. You'd think they'd be happy for them.
I am happy for them to leave, as long as they take RBOS with them and put up a border wall.
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>> am happy for them to leave, as long as they take RBOS with them and put up a border wall
Once you return rUK's share of North Sea oil revenue we'll consider your request.
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>> >> am happy for them to leave, as long as they take RBOS with them
>> and put up a border wall
>>
>> Once you return rUK's share of North Sea oil revenue we'll consider your request.
No chance, most of that went back north anyway, and the rest to bail out your crappy bank
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I have this funny feeling, that, despite the constant moaning, they never will leave us.
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No, it isn't a country or a state. It's a nation. It isn't self-governing.
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>> That would be the referendum that looks increasingly as though it was bought by 'big
>> money' whether domestic or foreign?
Come off it. There was a lot more weight behind Remain one way and another, but it was characterised by a super-complacent tone. The government "facts" leaflet in particular probably did more harm than good - a credulous gerbil would have seen that as patronising and so smug that even the true parts seemed unbelievable.
Leave did more with less - and yes there was some effective propaganda in there, in the form of very generalised and unquantified benefits.
None of them really did any proper work, but Leave didn't take the result for granted - Remain and the government did, and that came across in the campaigns, both a disgrace in their own ways.
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I think people might also be mixing up the official leave campaign and the Leave.EU campaign which is the one being investigated.
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>>None of them really did any proper work, but Leave didn't take the result for granted - Remain and the government did, and that came across in the campaigns, both a disgrace in their own ways.
About as good a summation as you'll get.
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I have no reason to doubt this report, but neither do I know how good it is.
It is interesting though...
whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/NatCen_Brexplanations-report-FINAL-WEB2.pdf
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That Aaron Banks is a liar, fraudster, tax cheat and should be in jail probably beyond doubt. Dont think he actually had much sway over the vote tho, and in truth caused much friction within the leave campaign. His whole involvement was designed to try and obtain some kind of political role or position to enhance his own beliefs of self importance.
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Brexit Discussion - Volume 63 - zippy
