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Continuing debate
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 20 Jul 18 at 16:54
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Now even MORE Britons want to leave the EU - an increase of nearly 15% since the Brexit referendum, survey claims
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5936053/Now-Britons-want-leave-EU-nearly-15-increase-referendum-survey-claims.html
There will be several surveys each side claiming people changed minds but the fact is genie is out of the bottle. If remainers don't want to leave, why not just allow UK to leave ASAP and see how UK performs outside EU. If we perform poorly then there can be another referendum whether people want to rejoin EU.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 10 Jul 18 at 13:05
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Mmm wonder what results a Brexit survey in the Daily Mail will deliver.
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>> Now even MORE Britons want to leave the EU - an increase of nearly 15%
>> since the Brexit referendum, survey claims
>>
Perhaps that is why Remainers have stopped clamouring for a second referendum and now wave the "Parliament must decide" banner? :)
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Have any posters picked up news on the WTO-rules option the govt. were supposed to be researching? That is surely the best way to go now.
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>> Have any posters picked up news on the WTO-rules option the govt. were supposed to
>> be researching? That is surely the best way to go now.
Googling produces lots of different analyses of what the WTO option might look like. Several appear to come from people or organisations with a remain bias and might be dismissed as unduly pessimistic. There is however one from The Economist which may be more neutral:
www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/01/09/why-the-wto-option-for-brexit-will-prove-tricky
It might also be notable that none of the top Google responses are from Brexit sources backing up opinion of those like Lord Lawson or Jacob Rees-Mogg who assert WTO would be plain sailing.
Evidence yet again that they cannot support their policies with a straightforward plan?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 11 Jul 18 at 11:29
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>> Have any posters picked up news on the WTO-rules option the govt. were supposed to
>> be researching? That is surely the best way to go now.
The ones Trump is abusing? Yup the WTO rules are a great option
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Immediately following the referendum, the younger voters claimed that the vote was biased by all the older voters who wanted to leave the EU; when the oldies died, then there would be a shifting desire to remain. Of course, they failed to observe that the younger voters would eventually grow older and wiser (with the possible exception of Brompt), and change their minds.
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>> Immediately following the referendum, the younger voters claimed that the vote was biased by all
>> the older voters who wanted to leave the EU; when the oldies died, then there
>> would be a shifting desire to remain. Of course, they failed to observe that the
>> younger voters would eventually grow older and wiser (with the possible exception of Brompt), and
>> change their minds.
You're whistling in the dark. The oldies who voted out most heavily were those who grew up in the war or were early baby boomers influenced by post war jingoism. Those of us born after around 1960 either never acquired, or have grown out of, that mindset.
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>> >
>> Those of us born after around 1960 either never acquired, or have grown out of,
>> that mindset.
>>
Ah yes, those of use who are young now will never grow old. We are the Peter Pan generation, unlike all generations that have ever gone before us.
Enjoy it now, for I suspect the changes creep on slowly, and we shall die still denying that it applies to us.
:)
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>> You're whistling in the dark.
And so are you, surely? I hate the misuse of these statistical correlations to label people. I can't think of anyone I know in my age group (60-70) that I would categorise as xenophobic for example, or exhibiting a jingoistic attitude.
The most often quoted (the association of lower income, lower educational attainment and greater age with leave voting) are largely interchangeable proxies anyway.
How about "Poorer people are more likely to be dissatisfied with their lives and therefore more likely to 'blame' the status quo and to favour change. They are also over represented in the retired population and those with fewer qualifications".
That's just as valid, and invalid, as all the other made up 'journalism'. But if there is anything in it, it might be a good reason not to have referendums at all.
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>> That's just as valid, and invalid, as all the other made up 'journalism'. But if
>> there is anything in it, it might be a good reason not to have referendums
>> at all.
>>
>>
That's an interesting point. Supposing it were discovered that women, say, were under-represented in a particular form of democratic participation, I'm sure it would be argued that that made it inherently undemocratic.
For example, women might be numerically under-represented in a big industrial trade union, because historically they tend not to be boiler-makers, blast-furnace people, fisherpeople, etc, so the MP sponsored by that union might be considered unrepresentative of people generally?
On the other hand, if you can't accept that people in different age, social, regional, occupational, religious, etc bands might tend to have different political views, then what is democracy?
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>> I can't think of anyone I know in my age group (60-70) that I would categorise as .........… exhibiting a jingoistic attitude.
You have got to be having a laugh.
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>> Immediately following the referendum, the younger voters claimed that the vote was biased by all
>> the older voters who wanted to leave the EU; when the oldies died, then there
>> would be a shifting desire to remain. Of course, they failed to observe that the
>> younger voters would eventually grow older and wiser (with the possible exception of Brompt), and
>> change their minds.
LOL, you must be auditioning for a Telegraph/News of the world/Daily Mail staff editorial position.
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>>
>> LOL, you must be auditioning for a Telegraph/News of the world/Daily Mail staff editorial position.
>>
>>
...or a UKIP candidacy in the forthcoming General Election....
;-)
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My question was concerned with the preparations - if any - the govt. is making for the eventuality.
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I said it before, but there was far more analysis and research that went into the Scottish Independence vote, from all sides, than there appeared to be with the Brexit vote.
Brexit, as has been said before, was about a falling out of Eton toffs and the rest of the country has to carry the can. General elections etc can be changed very few years but a vote of this magnitude should have had further caveats in it like a higher percentage needed that simply more than 50%.
In all seriousness, what would be required to hold another referendum on Brexit? Is it possible? (Not sure how the first one came about other than Cameron promising his pals)
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>> Brexit, as has been said before, was about a falling out of Eton toffs and
>> the rest of the country has to carry the can. General elections etc can be
>> changed very few years but a vote of this magnitude should have had further caveats
>> in it like a higher percentage needed that simply more than 50%.
Whether you agree with the result or not, or even with referendums in general you cannot have one where the minority view holds sway. If you do have one then the only majority either side needs is by one vote.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 11 Jul 18 at 20:12
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I think you're right Bobby. It's all gone horribly wrong, for all the prognostications by both sides I don't recall anybody predicting this.
Whether a new referendum is a good idea or not the project has clearly run into the sands, and if it was a school fete it would have been abandoned by now, but hey it's only a country and our future.
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>>if it was a school fete it would have been abandoned
>> by now,
>>
But similar considerations would apply.
Half the pupils would be bitterly disappointed, and would have put in an enormous amount of effort in preparation.
The m****** ( big tent - what's up with the swear filter?) has been erected and still needs to be paid for.
The caterers have been setting things up, and a lot of fresh food has been ordered and is on its way.
A lot of parents have arranged their committments so as to attend, and will be disappointed and possibly very cross.
Lady Blank who was to open the fete is reconsidering her considerable donation to the science block extension fund.
The large advertisement in the local paper has already appeared, so a lot of people will be turning up at the school gates expecting an enjoyable day out.
No plausible explanation for the cancellation has been given, other than that the bursar has resigned and the head, who was a pathetic w****r anyway, is in a panic.
All very familiar stuff, but being British we just get on with it.
Last edited by: Cliff Pope on Thu 12 Jul 18 at 08:18
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>> The m****** ( big tent - what's up with the swear filter?) has been erected
>> and still needs to be paid for.
It's computer talk. That word - the 'm' word - has a certain meaning in computer tech talk.
That's why some sites treat it as a swear word.
That's all I know.
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>> The m****** ( big tent - what's up with the swear filter?)
It's a HTML command, which we had to put in the swear filter to stop people doing HTML stuff.
www.htmlcodetutorial.com/_MARQUEE.html
it can be used to do things like this:-
But some people took it too far, hence why it's in the filter.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 12 Jul 18 at 09:29
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Brexit reminds me of a tale.
Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you cant have your kayak and heat it too!
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Noah and his family were about to set off in their ark, and were pestered by so many animals that they determined on an inclusivity policy and let in anyone without considering their usefulness on the voyage.
They loved the woodpeckers' colourful plumage, industry, and cheerful noise, but ......
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>> Noah and his family were about to set off in their ark, and were pestered
>> by so many animals that they determined on an inclusivity policy and let in anyone
>> without considering their usefulness on the voyage.
>> They loved the woodpeckers' colourful plumage, industry, and cheerful noise, but ......
>>
However, Noah would eventually realise that despite complaining incessantly and loudly about the woodpeckers, they had quietly gone about caring for the ark's sick, cleaning its toilets, cooking and serving its meals, harvesting the foodstuffs grown on board, and doing all manner of other jobs that had his family had either been unqualified for, or simply considered not worth the effort, for years.
Noah and his family may also have taken advantage of the opportunity to travel freely and work among the 27 other arks right on their doorstep, places of amazing, horizon broadening opportunity, and aesthetic and cultural variety.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 12 Jul 18 at 15:21
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>> However, Noah would eventually realise that despite complaining incessantly and loudly about the woodpeckers, they
>> had quietly gone about caring for the ark's sick, cleaning its toilets, cooking and serving
>> its meals, harvesting the foodstuffs grown on board, and doing all manner of other jobs
>> that had his family had either been unqualified for, or simply considered not worth the
>> effort, for years.
I think the point of the woodpeckers in the wooden ark tale has passed you by a little, your alternative ending does not hold water shall we say.
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On the other hand, you could say that qualifications are not needed for menial jobs and it would do Noah and his family good reconsider if those jobs are worth the effort if they don't do them their self.
Noah might also have considered that time spent in his home ark, working on improving it, would give him a sense of pride and self-worth.
Pat
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I think your alternative endings of woodpeckers in arks does not hold water.
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Depends how thick the planks are...
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>> Depends how thick the planks are...
>>
Underestimating the thickness of the planks is a lesson which should already have been learned.
Pat
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>> Noah might also have considered that time spent in his home ark, working on improving
>> it, would give him a sense of pride and self-worth.
If Noah were young and energetic that might be true. trouble is all the Noahs are elderly and won't be around long enough to contribute to the building of the new arks, instead leaving baby Noah to try and rebuild a new ark from the collapsed ones. Old Noah don't care. He left his rotten waterlogged hulk for others to clear up.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 12 Jul 18 at 15:41
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>> trouble is all the Noahs are elderly and won't be around long enough to contribute to the building of the new arks, instead leaving baby Noah to try and rebuild a new ark from the collapsed ones<<
Then old Noah should have reproduced more in his productive years, and certainly should have reared baby Noah with a set of values that ensured success and pride in his roots.
Pat
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The esteemed President........................................
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKC_EeA4LUU
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Have some sympathy, Roger, anyone can see that it's sciatica.
....... I sometimes get a bad attack of sciatica after a pint or two of red wine.
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>> ....... I sometimes get a bad attack of sciatica after a pint or two of
>> red wine.
>>
As sciaticad as a newt? :-)
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Well, I'm glad you all liked the Noah story. (Actually I pinched it from a cartoon, as I'm sure you spotted)
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Trump - Says what he believes, does what he says.
Putin - Says nothing, does what he wants
TM - Says rubbish, does what Merkel wants
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>> Trump - Says what he believes, does what he says.
But what he says/believes changes by the hour.
>> TM - Says rubbish, does what Merkel wants
Really?
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>> Trump - Says what he believes, does what he says.
Yes, how is the big beautiful wall coming along?
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Can I get an app to filter out all Trump and Brexit news items?
I would be willing to pay good money and that is not something I am heard to say very often.
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Seems an eminently sensible way out of the impasse the country and government is in.
Greening proposes a new referendum
She states there are three options: the PM's deal, staying in the EU or a clean break from Europe with no deal.
Ms Greening said the referendum should offer a first and second preference vote so that a consensus can be reached.
Too sensible for some I guess.
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>>
Too sensible for some I guess.<<
Totally unnecessary. We've been there and done that.
Following that route would achieve one thing and one thing only.
JC would become our new leader, do you really want that?
Never underestimate the feelings of the majority who have already voted to leave and feel cheated by Theresa May.
Pat
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Ms Greening's call highlights another consequence of the post referendum mess. People like her and Nicky Morgan should be in the cabinet. They're on the back benches, at least in part, because they're not Brexity enough. Instead we have folks like Chris Grayling, whose term at Justice should have disqualified him from high office for life, and Esther McVey who doesn't seem to 'get' the basics of her department or the role of the NAO, in name of in/out balance.
Greening was the best Education Minister since Estelle Morris. Product of a comprehensive education and with a proper career before being an MP. Undogmatic and practical; opposed to grammar schools as addressing the wrong problem. Stood up to May and declined a move to accommodate others after Damian Green's resignation.
Since nobody knows what Brexit means, and there are at least two versions on offer, another referendum seems quite sensible.
Whether telling the public who voted out they were sold a pup is doable is another problem.
I'd welcome JC in Downing Street. Rather it was Lammy or Starmer leading the party but anything is better than the current shower.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 16 Jul 18 at 08:31
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>> I'd welcome JC in Downing Street. Rather it was Lammy or Starmer leading the party
>> but anything is better than the current shower.
Trouble is JC is in the same boat. He has no Brexit plan or strategy, and his party is split the same way. So if he gets in power you just add dire financial mismanagement to the mess.
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"JC would become our new leader, do you really want that?"
Personally I didn't want BREXIT either. But that's democracy at work, as would be JC taking over.
I do think the BREXIT horse has bolted and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. :-)
We should just get on with a sensible BREXIT which provides a fair compromise for the whole of the country, in view of the Leave majority being fairly small. I think that's what they are doing, especially given the absence of any clarity of what BREXIT meant in real terms, and also in the absence of the totally disloyal BREXIT champions who have fled the field, and have completely let down the BREXIT side.
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Totally unnecessary. We've been there and done that.
Have we ? We voted for Brexit in June 2016 - no-one really knew what it meant unless they had an in depth knowledge of CAP, Fisheries Policies, what to do about the land-border in Ireland, the effect it would have on the NHS, free movement of people, customs' union etc etc, and weren't registering a protest vote against Cameron, Osborne or the German family down the street.
EDIT:
When I said we, I meant the UK. I voted to remain, and would definitely do so again.
Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 16 Jul 18 at 16:03
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In view of your dissatisfaction with Theresa May I would have thought that you would welcome a way to force a hard Brexit. The referendum would give you that if,as you believe, the majority want that outcome.
As it stands there is unlikely to be a leadership challenge before Brexit for the simple reason tha no one else wants the job at present and could not attract sufficient support.
My reading of the situation is that we leave the EU on a watered down version of Theresa May’s proposal. There will then be a leadership challenge. My betting on the next Tory PM would be Gove. There will then be a General Election in which the Labour Party will just about scrape a majority,
How do you see it panning out Pat. Some sort of revolution?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 16 Jul 18 at 12:09
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Good news at last for the Brexiteers - EU immigration is down.
tinyurl.com/y8m48oe3
Of course immigration from outside the EU over which we already have full control continues to rise...
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 16 Jul 18 at 18:38
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>> There will then be a General Election in
>> which the Labour Party will just about scrape a majority,
>>
With Sin Fein support, just to complete the symetry?
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Possibly. Let me make it clear the future I predicted is not what I would like, just what I think is the likely outcome. I would be interested in hearing how others think the next few years will pan out politically. Again not what you want but what you think will happen.
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That is an interesting question, and one I shall ponder on before answering. Might take me a day or two.
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>>Again not what you
>> want but what you think will happen.
>>
I think you might be right. Certainly it's a plausible outcome.
The interesting complication in all this is that the Conservative left mostly don't want Brexit but are being pushed by half of public opinion, plus some Irish, whereas the Labour left mostly do want Brexit but are being pushed by the other half, plus some other Irish.
So each is hampered by really being on the wrong side but they can't escape the trap they've set themselves. The Conservatives have to pretend they want Brexit, and Labour have to pretend they don't.
Labour must just hope that May hangs on long enough to take the blame for whatever happens, so they don't have to reveal they haven't a clue either.
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>> whereas the Labour
>> left mostly do want Brexit
No they dont, certainly the unions dont, they have far better power when they are linked with their european counterparts.
However their electorate and members do want brexit.
The Labour party is between a rock and a hard place. One thing they would do in brexit, and that is ceed Northern Ireland to the republic.
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>>and that is ceed Northern Ireland to the republic.
Apart from the odd reference to a Korean hatchback.... I doubt the Republic could handle that.
4.8 million in the south inheriting a million in the north who really really reaaaaalllly don't want to be part of their plan.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 16 Jul 18 at 23:13
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Again not what you
>> want but what you think will happen.
>>
Problem is many people struggle to split the two.
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>> Totally unnecessary. We've been there and done that.
Well, other than the fact that we haven't.
You don't seem the type to be deliberately obtuse so I guess that you simply don't understand most of this stuff. As a tip, I've always found it easier to learn with my eyes open and my mouth closed.
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Still can't help feeling that those MPs that want a hard Brexit are in it for themselves and are duplicitous.
JRM is one of the worst, wanting a hard Brexit but happy to set up a satellite office in Dublin for his investment company.
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>> JRM is one of the worst, wanting a hard Brexit but happy to set up
>> a satellite office in Dublin for his investment company.
I don't actually see anything wrong with that, even though I am not a fan of Mogg.
Economics drive trade, in or out. Businesses do what they need to do appropriate to the circumstances.
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Vote Leave fined £61,000 and referred to the police.
Can't even trust them to be honest with their election spending - how can their promises be trusted?
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>> Vote Leave fined £61,000 and referred to the police.
Remoaners are still trying to reverse the result.
What about govt. spending £9 million to send printed materials to electorates homes asking them to vote remain? Why that's not a crime?
£61k is actually a small amount. This means even after trying to discredit Vote Leave as much as they could, only managed to make a small dent.
Both sides lied and accusing other party is like kettle calling pot black.
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>> Remoaners are still trying to reverse the result.
Why do we need the stupid label remoaners? It's not a crime to think the out vote is, even before allegations of malpractice, a massive mistake.
>> What about govt. spending £9 million to send printed materials to electorates homes asking them
>> to vote remain? >b>Why that's not a crime?
Because it was done before the official campaign started.
>> £61k is actually a small amount. This means even after trying to discredit Vote Leave
>> as much as they could, only managed to make a small dent.
There is now a swirling morass of allegations around the leave campaign ranging from data misuse to Russian interference.
>> Both sides lied and accusing other party is like kettle calling pot black.
The Remain campaign was lack lustre, half hearted and far too heavily rooted in project fear. OK Osborne didn't need an emergency budget but partly because fancy footwork by the Bank of England nipped the problem in the bud. The whoppers though (money for NHS, Turkish accession/migration to name but two) and pretty much all the malpractice exposed so far have been on the leave side.
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>>Why do we need the stupid label remoaners? It's not a crime to think the out vote is, even before allegations of malpractice, a massive mistake. <<
It certainly isn't a crime but the problem is as soon as someone who supports Brexit passes an opinion they are immediately branded as incapable of understanding the situation.
Consequently, they do what I do and walk away from the discussion simply because there is no discussion to be had.
Remainers, remoaners or whatever, definitely seem to think they are superior beings.
Pat
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Without wishing to become embroiled in any Brexit discussion, I have two good friends, both with young families, both highly successful in their field of law ( one is a barrister, the other his own large legal business) who are fervent Brexiteers. Because they are good friends I asked them how they voted, they replied and we never mentioned it again.
Totally opposite are two other friends. Both useless with their own finances, made some very poor lifestyle choices which they regret, who are fervent remainers. They constantly go on about it, both on social media and to me when out for a walk ! Even to the point of me (recklessly) being in Spain next March when this Brexit thing is supposed to happen. The day after my old Mum will no longer be able to use her Blue Badge! It’s becoming tedious.
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>> The day after my old Mum will no longer be able
>> to use her Blue Badge! It’s becoming tedious.
Why won't she be able to use her blue badge?
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>> >> The day after my old Mum will no longer be able
>> >> to use her Blue Badge! It’s becoming tedious.
>>
>> Why won't she be able to use her blue badge?
They are going to Lourdes and she will be miraculously cured.
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>> Remainers, remoaners or whatever, definitely seem to think they are superior beings.
>>
>> Pat
No we just know that you are incapable of understanding the situation, because if you did you wouldn't have been so irresponsible
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 18 Jul 18 at 20:06
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I'm not sure that one side has accused the other side of anything. It's the Electoral Commission and the police who are doing that.
I might be wrong...
And often, IMO, whatever the final "charge" is in a case, the actuality is far more serious. Charges are usually laid only on the most provable portions of a case, which are likely to lead to a successful prosecution. Might be different here of course, not least as this isn't a court case as such.
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>> £61k is actually a small amount
It is - if I was behind the campaign I'd be more worried about the police investigation.
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If you are going to keep calling me a remoanber, I am going to calling you an ignorant prick OK?
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>> Both sides lied and accusing other party is like kettle calling pot black.
Both sides were given an equivalent budget. Leave chose to ignore the legal constraint and did so in an underhanded manner.
The £9m isn't a crime because it's within the allowed budget. Remain underspent. If leave claim it was an error, makes one wonder about their accounting / budgeting skills?
The £61k is the fine, but the real overspend is believed by the Electoral Commission to be in the region of £500k.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 18 Jul 18 at 20:07
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The £9m. was not, as far as I recall, within the campaign spending limits.
The government leaflet was supposedly the long awaited factual information leaflet, although it read like Remain propaganda.
Happy to be corrected if my memory is faulty.
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I remember on those leaflets there was something in line of "govt belives that staying in EU is best option" - which is not fact but subjective opinion.
Funny how the demand for 2nd referendum panned out. First they wanted to have 2 options - [1] accept the deal [2] stay in EU.
Now after some surveys reported that even more support towards leaving, now they want 3 options [1] accept half-in/half out deal [2] leave with no deal [3] remain in EU.
If those are indeed options, then leave votes are likely to be split between [1] & [2] thus giving [3] is highly probably win.
You must praise remoaners' ingenuity.
PS: Remoaner is a valid word now - en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Remoaner
:o)
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>> I remember on those leaflets there was something in line of "govt belives that staying
>> in EU is best option" - which is not fact but subjective opinion.
The leaflet is here tinyurl.com/yaegxjw8 . It set out the government's firm belief why remaining in was the right decision and supported that with a number of factual or fact based assertions.
Two and a half years after its publication and two years after the referendum it seem most of those statements have been proved right for example:
If the UK voted to leave the EU, the resulting economic shock would put pressure on the value of the pound, which would risk higher prices of some household goods and damage living standards.
Prety much what happened.
The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world. Some argue that we could strike a good deal quickly with the EU because they want to keep access to our market. But the Government’s judgement is that it would be much harder than that – less than 8% of EU exports come to the UK while 44% of UK
exports go to the EU.
Years of uncertainty?
>> Funny how the demand for 2nd referendum panned out. First they wanted to have 2
>> options - [1] accept the deal [2] stay in EU.
>>
>> Now after some surveys reported that even more support towards leaving, now they want 3
>> options [1] accept half-in/half out deal [2] leave with no deal [3] remain in EU.
>>
>> If those are indeed options, then leave votes are likely to be split between [1]
>> & [2] thus giving [3] is highly probably win.
I don't think there's any relationship between what some surveys report and Justine Greeninig's suggested 3-way choice. A rehash of original referendum is just that. Giving the public a meaningful choice between soft brexit, hard brexit or let's call the whole thing off is reasonable.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 18 Jul 18 at 20:08
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>>Giving the public a meaningful choice between soft brexit, hard brexit or let's call the whole thing off is reasonable.
Not even slightly possible.
It's up to the elected members to sort this crap out - that's why they get paid, and why they can and should carry the can if/when they screw up, rather than having the population lambasting each other.
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Not often I would admit to agreeing with you Lygonos, but that is spot on.
Pat
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>> It's up to the elected members to sort this crap out - that's why they
>> get paid, and why they can and should carry the can if/when they screw up,
>> rather than having the population lambasting each other.
Agree with that in principle but they don't show the slightest grasp of how to sort it out as amply demonstrated by shenanigans of last 48 hours. LAst night's concession to Rees-Mogg's bunch and the proposed early recess point to a PM more concerned about party than country.
LAbour are not a great deal better but at least their leader's not having to watch his back all the time.
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>>but they don't show the slightest grasp of how to sort it out as amply demonstrated by shenanigans of last 48 hours. LAst night's concession to Rees-Mogg's bunch and the proposed early recess point to a PM more concerned about party than country. <<
They are elected to do the job and if they are incapable of doing that then they have to shape up or face the consequences, just like the rest of us in any gainful employment.
We don't alter the job description to suit, because the candidate we chose is incapable of doing the job.
Pat
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I'm getting a bit fed up with people wanting to change our democratic system just because it doesn't suit their agenda. A couple of weeks ago people wanted to do away with the House of Lords because it voted against something BREXITy. A bit longer ago that bloke (Chope?) had some very unpleasant accusations made against him because he prevented some upskirting bill being rushed through Parliament when no-one was there.
I quite like the checks and balances which people like Chope, and the Lords, bring to the democratic processes. Also that MPs cover the range of views and are not all Yes men, or all on one side of the fence or another.
It's all very well us armchair politicians knowing exactly what they should do, and how they should do it, just like we could all manage the England football team much better than someone with years of background and experience in the game, and an understanding of the broader picture.
But I imagine MPs in general (not just the Tories) are still struggling to work out what the public really voted for (I know I am!), then even greater trouble translating that into something which will be in the best interests of the UK.
I think it's a shame that people feel that debate and discussion, and following due democratic process, indicates that they are incapable of doing their job.
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LAbour are not a great deal better but at least their leader's not having to
>> watch his back all the time.
>>
Not in last few months, but he's hardly got a history of stability and unequivocal support of Labour MPs has he?
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If I was PM I'd have gone back to the EU pronto with the referendum result and said:
1. Sort your crap out to get the UK back in love with you and I'll re-run the referendum in 12mths*, or
2. Bye, here's the new NI/EIRE border and hard brexit - we'll take the economic hit, cut the NHS and pensions, and start our relationships all over again (while you sort your crap out)
Whether parliament would allow that to happen is a different matter of course.
* of course this was what Cameron attempted prior to the referendum, but he's a useless flange and had already pizza'd off Europe with his pointless vetoing trying to emphasis his epic phallus to his party, so the EU basically ignored him.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 17 Jul 18 at 17:48
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Sensible;
But look what you're dealing with. Farage, for example? You think he would agree to that? He'd have jumped up and down all over the Daily Mail and the lemmings would have blindly followed him.
Farage has repeatedly said, most recently about a month ago, that to him the deal was not important, that the financials were not important and that *all* he cared about was leaving the EU no matter what.
With him and his equally ignorant and dogmatic supporters your most sensible suggestion would fail even if you could find a Prime Minister with the balls and the brains.
It all went wrong from the moment Cameron thought he could manage the situation without putting any particular thought into consequences. He did more damage to the UK than Blair ever could.
We would have fixed It from within. And from what various EU and other Ambassadors said to me, I think we could have done. I think the most telling thing I heard was "whilst nothing we wanted to change was supported by every EU Member, everything we wanted to change was supported by some".
But so main of those in the Leave group are like Farage, no interest in anything other than leaving.
And I do not believe that there is any way back without a General Election and one party standing firmly for leave and the other standing firmly for remain. And that will not happen.
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>>...your most sensible suggestion would fail even if you could find a Prime Minister with the balls and the brains.
That's been the problem from the start - if I'd been PM I'd have had the balls... but would probably been thrown out and replaced with the useless fudgemonger we have currently.
I'd certainly have had parliament make the final decision on article 50 as parliament are the lawmakers, not the populace directly.
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>> * of course this was what Cameron attempted prior to the referendum, but he's a
>> useless flange and had already pizza'd off Europe with his pointless vetoing trying to emphasis
>> his epic phallus to his party, so the EU basically ignored him.
That's the nub of it. If he'd put some weight into building relationships with political allies in Europe - and they exist - he's have had 'money in the bank'. Instead he spent his opposition years re-aligning his MEPs away from the soft right Christian Democrat type alliance and joining what seemed at time some pretty gross bedfellows albeit they're now in power in Poland, Hungary etc. During the coalition he did exactly what you say vetoing and being a dog in the manger thus further alienating people. Then he offers a referendum, probably further piXXing off allies AND wants them to cut us yet more exceptions from the standard EU membership deal.
And the exceptions thin exposes the weakness in your 1 or 2 option - the crap that needed sorting was ours not theirs.
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>> 1. Sort your crap out to get the UK back in love with you and
>> I'll re-run the referendum in 12mths*, or
Essentially yes, Should have been "We leave in 24 months, get it all fixed or at least provide a solution to my constituents or we are off, and you can kiss your divorce bill goodbye"
>> 2. Bye, here's the new NI/EIRE border and hard brexit -
Yup, its your border Ireland/Eu you fix it.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44871629
I listened to this live and what an excellent speech he made.
Pat
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Did he promise peace in our time?
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>> Did he promise peace in our time?
Nah, Unicorns and Rainbows.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44871629
>>
>> I listened to this live and what an excellent speech he made.
He's a writer and orator by profession. He sounds convincing and a man of vision until you actually try and find the detail behind his rhetorical flourish.
He's not the foggiest how he might deliver.
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>> He's a writer and orator by profession. He sounds convincing and a man of vision until you actually try and find the detail behind his rhetorical flourish.
I thought all politicians are like that :o) The difference is that when a polician speaks in our favour, we think he/she is the saviour.
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>> I thought all politicians are like that :o) The difference is that when a polician
>> speaks in our favour, we think he/she is the saviour.
Smiley noted. Most can do a creditable job of public speaking but a few struggle. Bridget Prentice who was at justice c2007 was pretty dire - underprepared and under informed.
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>>Most can do a creditable job of public speaking but a few struggle.
>> Bridget Prentice who was at justice c2007 was pretty dire - underprepared and under informed.
Liz Truss wins hands down. She has my sympathy, I can't do it either. I like to think it's because really good oratory is about dissembling.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YxhIq6t6Fk
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In watching that I ended up seeing a recent JRM clip which made me smile.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=httYzdk2lYo
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"Liz Truss wins hands down."
Oh dear, I remember that one; ever since, my wife and I have called it 'the pork-tork', and poor Liz is referred to as 'the pork lady'. I cringed with embarrassment for her as she continued.
The most unfortunate speaker I ever witnessed was at a scientific conference some 30 years ago - I'll never forget the disastrous performance. With about 500 in the audience, the speaker had decided to be ambitious using both acetates and slides; the talk was squeezed into a strictly-timed slot (ISTR 12 minutes) and, with a minute to go, a speaker was given an amber light - a minute later, the red light meant that the speaker was to be hauled off. The ensuing scene turned out to be as disastrous as that American comedian describing the hoisting of a barrel of bricks on a construction site.
The speaker started brightly, reading from his script then, as his confidence grew, he decided to go off-piste and ad lib. He then realised that his acetates and slides were becoming out of synch with what he was saying and he was taking too long; then he lost his place on his notes. He desperately re-shuffled his notes to try and make some sense of the situation, then he put the papers on on the table where they became mixed up with his acetates. Aware that time was marching on, in his panic, he knocked the acetates and notes onto the floor where they floated over the polished surface. He quickly bent down to pick them up and the microphone clipped to his collar was snatched loose. The audience was stupefied with horror and sympathy and I can't remember what happened after all that ...... I just shut my eyes.
I saw that relatively early on in my career and as a result, I resolved to write a script for timed talks and stick to simple graphics. Later, of course, Powerpoint made things somewhat easier but even after giving countless talks, I still find public speaking pretty stressful.
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My toes curl on his behalf. I rather enjoy public speaking, which doesn't preclude my stomach from doing back flips in the 30 minutes leading up to it.
I've never had any disasters of that type though;
I once, in the very early days, thoroughly disgraced myself by trying to present to a trade show in Munich, in German, the morning after a very heavy night's drinking.
That taught me two lessons I've never forgotten.
1) Never in German
2) Alcohol and work just don't mix, however much I wish they would.
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You all sound like bunch of typical lorry drivers - you can all do the TM/Boss/Fitters/Planners job better than they can, but none are prepared to put their money where their mouth is:)
Pat
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>> You all sound like bunch of typical lorry drivers - you can all do the
>> TM/Boss/Fitters/Planners job better than they can, but none are prepared to put their money where
>> their mouth is:)
>>
>> Pat
Not quite sure what you mean by that. Perhaps you might elaborate. What can anyone do about the current mess except discuss, try and voice their concern to those in power. Have you put your money where your mouth is? If so how?
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>> Have you put your money where your mouth is? If so how?<<
No, after you CG let's see what you've done!
Yes, I'll happily elaborate.
It's not just lorry drivers it's always the way in any walk of life.
Armchair critics are quick to find fault, yet they have no qualifications or experience and no intentions of actually tackling the problems of those they criticise...but they would always do it better.
With the exception of Roger and Stu, I'm not aware of anyone on here who has actually had a go unless we have a closet politician in our mist?
Pat
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So if, for example, I think the road sweeper does a crap job, I am not allowed to say so unless I am prepared to go and sweep the roads myself?
Ditto the person who serves me in a shop or a pub, or the guy who repairs my car, or my banker etc. etc. etc??,
Rather a silly point, don't you think?
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Do you think that nobody other than politicians have a right to discuss politics? Are you not interested in the world about you? Do you think we should just vote vote once every five years and then be quiet and refrain from all comment in the interim? Why do you participate in a forum if you are not prepared to discuss issues?
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>>Why do you participate in a forum if you are not prepared to discuss issues?<<
I'm doing a Boris.
I long ago gave up trying to have a discussion on here.
It provokes a response from one certain person each time I post anything ( I think he's besotted actually;)) so I do what so many others did before me when the Brexit subjects were active before the referendum....and ignore him!
I go and discuss it with them in another place where it's civilised and enlightening, listening and contributing to other opinions instead of point scoring.
Not only that, it's good to keep in touch with old friends from when car4play started.
Pat
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I don't think reading everything I write, thinking and commenting on it and then professing to ignore me is actually ignoring me, is it?
Wouldn't you be better to just *actually* ignore me?
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>> > Have you put your money where your mouth is? If so how?
>>
Everybody with an opinion about Brexit appears to believe that making the wrong decision would be financially disadvantageous for the country. So surely everyone who voted in the referendum has put their money where their mouth is?
You were taking a gamble and backing it with your vote. Your side might have won, but it still might be the wrong decision. Or your side might have lost, luckily, as it turned out to be the wrong option anyway.
Either way, we've all made a bet and have got money at stake. Those who didn't vote of course still might gain or lose, but they didn't put their money anywhere, someone else did.
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>> You all sound like bunch of typical lorry drivers - you can all do the
>> TM/Boss/Fitters/Planners job better than they can, but none are prepared to put their money where
>> their mouth is:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
...a very good summary of Boris's speech, Pat.
Sniping from the gallery with no idea of how, where or when.......
(though, TBH, that currently applies to just about every one else on any side in parliament, it's just that Boris has form).
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>>Sniping from the gallery<<
Where do you think I perfected the art?
Pat
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BJ is cringe worthy:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/30/boris-johnson-caught-on-camera-reciting-kipling-in-myanmar-temple
and one has to wonder about his judgement overall when a person does something like that.
Also he's a known philanderer which again raises the judgement issue as well as trust.
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This isn't getting any better!
"About 45 million packs of medicine go from the UK to Europe every month and 37 million packs travel in the other direction. They need to be licensed, tested and certified by qualified staff recognised by the relevant medicines regulator.
At the moment, a test in the UK is valid in the EU and vice versa. After a no-deal Brexit that wouldn't be the case. And the European regulator has already told companies to plan on that basis."
www.bbc.com/news/business-44847914
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Didn’t realise UK is that strong in medical sector!
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Brexit is a mess. Anyone who thought there would be an orderly withdrawal was deluded. One of the managers in work was wittering on about a "hard Brexit" today saying we'd be OK with "WTO rules" - Genuinely ignorant of what these are, I asked him to explain to me what they were al about. He couldn't of course. Just quoting a sound-bite. What a mess.
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WTO rules are what Giant Haystacks, Big Daddy and Mick McManus used to work to aren't they? :-)
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No, there's some good news, I mean look at this...
"The European Union and Japan have signed one of the world's biggest free trade deals, covering nearly a third of the world's GDP and 600 million people"
Good job we're not going to be part of that restrictive rubbish. Phew, narrow escape....
www.bbc.com/news/business-44857317
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But Movi - I'm sure I'd previously been given to understand that Leave voters knew everything about everything before casting their vote.
Ah well, you live and learn... :-)
Whatever, you heard it here first :-) See tinyurl.com/y836ks99
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>> But Movi - I'm sure I'd previously been given to understand that Leave voters knew
>> everything about everything before casting their vote.
>>
Being totally honest & realistic nobody on either side knew or had considered all the possibilities of remaining and/or leaving.
Some of us suspected that timetables were optimistic, difficulties in leaving were underplayed but equally who knows what battles would have happened in the last couple of years if we'd chosen to stay. Those who think we can now have another referendum and everyone will be happy or that we can get a Government of national unity led by someone like that nice Mr Cable are deluding themselves as much as those that believed that the NHS would get 350 million a week and nothing was going to cost more.
Either way, we are where we are and nobody is really going to be happy, there's at least a generation's worth of arguments and if only's to come. whatever the next few years brings.
But we weren't happy with things before either so to a large extent the UK population as a whole brought it on ourselves, and no the lying, useless bunch we elected to parliament on both sides didn't help either.
Rant over, it's been a long day
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>>Leave voters knew everything about everything before casting their vote
Why the voters need to know? Voters voted what they wanted. MPs need to execute what public wanted. Problem arised because some MPs think they could somehow overturn the result as that would suit them better.
Instead of saying sky would fall over us why not just move on without EU? If situation really turns out bad then offer another referendum 10 years later.
Maintaining status quo might seem easy option but not necessarily best option.
Those who are predicting end of the world, how many of their previous predictions turned out to be correct?
Too much what if can lead to analysis paralysis. Which can falsely lead to belief of status quo is best.
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>>Why the voters need to know?
Every now and again a person will ask a question which reveals the inner person for the whole world to see. Like this one.
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I don't think anyone could say that so far the process of achieving BREXIT hasn't been much more complex (politically and economically I mean) and probably quite a bit more costly in actual terms than anyone might have imagined. And of course more divisive.
I personally don't think we've seen the proper impact of BREXIT yet either way. New stuff is coming to light most days. We don;t yet know how or whether our trading inside and outside Europe is going to work, which is critical to our economy and thus our well-being.
By some measures the economy is doing well, but as this is happening elsewhere (incl Trumpland) too I'm not sure just how much credit for that should accrue to BREXIT but I don't believe it's too much.
The one thing I don't think should happen (and I don't think would be allowed) is doing a hokey cokey. Once we're out, we're out. You can;t have it all ways.
And anyway, if I was the Club of Europe I'd think twice about letting us back in, given how disruptive and disloyal we've been.
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>> And anyway, if I was the Club of Europe I'd think twice about letting us back in, given how
>> disruptive and disloyal we've been.
Impact on larger EU countries = loss of trade so they don't want us to leave.
Impact on smaller EU countries = we pay into the EU coffers and they get our money.... they want the money.
If I was the 'Club of Europe' I'd stop our rebate for sure. And some other opt outs we have. Before you know it... we'll adopt the Euro. ;-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 00:37
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>> Those who are predicting end of the world, how many of their previous predictions turned out to be correct?
We've not even decided as a country what we want leaving the EU to be yet. And the deadline is March 2019. So we've not left yet.
You unfortunately do not understand this and you've proved it over and over on this forum.
You remind me of some IT people we have working for us in India.
Latest I've seen about impact is about British authors and the impact on book sales if there are tariffs on book sales.... so we're going to impact those risking writing books so we can enjoy reading.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 00:35
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"Plans are being drawn up to issue millions of permits so Britons can drive on EU roads after Brexit"
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44881058
Feels like a leap back in time to me.
It also includes the phrase
"The report estimates that Brexit planning and implementation will have cost the department [of Transport] £180m by March 2022"
Multiply that by all the other departments and add the cost to business and, although I have no idea what it might come to, you would have a tidy sum.
Still, I realise that people consider that a small price to pay.
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Genuine question, I take those EU drivers coming here would have to do the same, buy an IDP?
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I've no idea. In fact this looks to me like a bit of contingency planning rather than a policy.
I expect some will say this is the Govt or BBC scaremongering again.
Just as some criticised the Govt previously for not carrying out any planning in the event of a Leave vote.
Probably not the same "some" though.
In the same article it also talks about the M20 seemingly becoming a semi permanent lorry park - "Other transport schemes it looked at include Project Brock, to deal with lorry queues on roads to Dover for cross-Channel journeys. The plan involves holding coast-bound lorries on the M20 so traffic not heading for the port can carry on moving." Sounds like Operation Stack which kicks in when there is disruption on the ferries.
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>> In the same article it also talks about the M20 seemingly becoming a semi permanent
>> lorry park - "Other transport schemes it looked at include Project Brock, to deal with
>> lorry queues on roads to Dover for cross-Channel journeys. The plan involves holding coast-bound lorries
>> on the M20 so traffic not heading for the port can carry on moving." Sounds
>> like Operation Stack which kicks in when there is disruption on the ferries.
Try not to worry about it.
There will be an equal amount of congestion on the other side of The Channel.
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>> There will be an equal amount of congestion on the other side of The Channel.
There is much more space on the other side.
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Impact of Brexit on EU
www.politico.eu/article/brexit-impact-on-european-regions-revealed-by-eu-report-phase-2-negotiations/
Most impact would be on Ireland and Germany.
Some more info here
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_Brexit_on_the_European_Union
>> There is much more space on the other side.
If majority of goods to UK travel via single point (e.g. Callais) then impact will be equal on either side.
Nobody assumed Brexit will be very easy. But people are approaching the issue from different angles.
Remainsers' logic is that since it is so complex let's just remain in EU.
Leavers' logic is that it will be complex but let's figure out how it can be achieved.
All the good/bad argument was valid until the referendum. Now everyone should focus on how to achieve the break from EU.
While EU might play around 1 against 27, but UK economy is larger than 15 smaller EU countries economies combined. So it will hurt EU equally. In fact some EU countries will be much worse hit compared to others - that would cause drift within EU.
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Without taking sides, just to pick up on some details of your post
>> If majority of goods to UK travel via single point (e.g. Callais) then impact will be equal on
>> either side.
there are far more ports in northern Europe than there are in the UK
>> Nobody assumed Brexit will be very easy.
I think actually a lot of people thought it would be easy, certainly easier than it is
>> All the good/bad argument was valid until the referendum. Now everyone should focus on how >> to achieve the break from EU.
Most people accept it will happen, I think most people now are looking at what we want to achieve not how we can do it, there are hundreds of different views of what the "break" is
>> While EU might play around 1 against 27, but UK economy is larger than 15 smaller EU >> countries economies combined. So it will hurt EU equally.
That is not logical on any level
UK GDP is about the same as France and less than Germany
Total GDP of EU is about 17 trillion, UK GDP is about 3
Brexit is going to hurt both UK and EU but probably will hurt EU more
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Sorry last phrase should read
Brexit is going to hurt both UK and EU but probably will hurt UK more
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>> If majority of goods to UK travel via single point (e.g. Callais) then impact will
>> be equal on either side.
It doesn't all come through Calais. A very significant part of the lorry traffic uses Dunkerque so it's split two ways there. We only have Dover. There are multiple motorway routes to Calais/Dunkerque. We just have the M25 and M2 but latter is not continuous or even dualled over it's whole length. France is a much bigger country but with same population as UK - much easier to find places to stack lorries.
>>Leavers' logic is that it will be complex but let's figure out how it can be achieved.
They don't even know what they want to achieve never mind how
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 11:04
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>>t doesn't all come through Calais. A very significant part of the lorry traffic uses Dunkerque so it's split two ways there. We only have Dover.<<
Goods come into:
Sheerness
Ramsgate
Folkestone
Newhaven
Shoreham
in addition to Dover.
It has the potential to increase the traffic at these ports and get them back to where they used to be.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 13:15
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>> It has the potential to increase the traffic at these ports and get them back
>> to where they used to be.
On strike?
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Pat, in the interests of balance do you know what other ports in northern europe are regularly used by UK lorries.
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>> Pat, in the interests of balance do you know what other ports in northern europe
>> are regularly used by UK lorries.
>>
I have seen UK lorries on the Hull / Zeebrugge and North Shields / Ijmuiden routes.
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>> Goods come into:
>>
>> Sheerness
>> Ramsgate
>> Folkestone
>> Newhaven
>> Shoreham
>>
>> in addition to Dover.
Are any of those, apart from Newhaven, currently used by ro-ro ferries for freight? I appreciate of course that Folkestone (Cheriton) is the tunnel's terminal.
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Folkestone has an extensive dock area as well as the tunnel.
British lorries use Zeebrugge as Bromp says, but the other routes are usually too long and expensive.
RoRo isn't the only way to go.
Surely putting goods into containers and having British hauliers collecting from the docks and delivering them would both cut down on sideswipe accidents and the problems with parking for lorries, in Kent in particular.
Having said that the residents of Kent are entirely responsible for that problem as they've petitioned against so many plans for lorry parking areas in the past that no-one even bothers now.
Manston airfield springs to mind, no more Operation Stack but no, they want to move the problem to Essex and Surrey.
Pat
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>> >> There is much more space on the other side.
>>
>> If majority of goods to UK travel via single point (e.g. Callais) t
They don't, And in one small little phrase you betray the Leavers naivety
>> All the good/bad argument was valid until the referendum. Now everyone should focus on how
>> to achieve the break from EU.
You voted, you cocked it up, you fix it.
>> While EU might play around 1 against 27, but UK economy is larger than 15
>> smaller EU countries economies combined. So it will hurt EU equally. In fact some EU
>> countries will be much worse hit compared to others - that would cause drift within
>> EU.
Yes the leavers utopia, the hope that our leaving will break up the EU. Dream on comrade.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 11:21
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It strikes me that Brexit is a kind of Doomsday Machine. No one know how to make it work, and no one knows how to stop it either. And time is running out.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 15:23
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>> It strikes me that Brexit is a kind of Doomsday Machine. No one know how
>> to make it work, and no one knows how to stop it either.
No good hiding it in the wrong thread, that won't work either.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 15:24
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>> It strikes me that Brexit is a kind of Doomsday Machine. No one know how
>> to make it work, and no one knows how to stop it either. And time
>> is running out.
>>
I put the blame not at the referendum or either side of the Brexit argument but firmly due to our weak governments prevarication. The reputed mess is purely due to poor leadership and decision making.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 15:24
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>> The reputed mess is purely due to poor leadership and decision making.
>>
While I agree we are led by "donkeys", I believe at least part of the mess is that a binary in/out decision does not get anywhere close to the possible range of outs, or indeed ins, which lie behind the stay/leave badges.
In addition I cannot see that whatever "deal" we end up with will be criticised from both directions in a hundred different ways.
BTW mods, can we shift these entries to the right place please
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 19 Jul 18 at 15:24
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But we are still calling it BREXIT, right? - movilogo
