Continuing discussion
538285
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 21 Jun 17 at 10:19
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/18/exclusive-david-davis-tipped-become-next-conservative-leader/
Quote from article:
Mr Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, is still widely seen as the most likely successor to Mrs May and the suggestion that Mr David is best placed to mount a challenge could be an attempt to smoke out his rival.
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>>Mr Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, is still widely seen as the most likely successor to Mrs May and the suggestion that Mr David is best placed to mount a challenge could be an attempt to smoke out his rival.
TCHA! .. couldn't make it up really could you :o)
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>> If this is what he meant it's ridiculous!
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/18/jeremy-corbyn-urges-people-occupy-empty-homes-supporters-plan/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_tmg
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>> And to think that he wants to be PM, that he COULD be PM ....
He's made a fairly general statement to which the Telegraph has applied its own spin.
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>> He's made a fairly general statement
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He's a clever politician who knows exactly what he was doing.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Mon 19 Jun 17 at 13:18
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>> And to think that he wants to be PM, that he COULD be PM ....
>>
He may very well be the next PM.
Tories are a toxic brand in most cities and the Momentum crowd know how to play social media to their advantage and crucially how to get the "yopf" to turn out for Corbyn.
Tom Utley, who the BBC describe as "very right wing", wrote "I have to admit it slightly rankles that among our four sons, we appear to have bred at least two out-and-out Corbynistas — and possibly more."
A senior Tory MP told the Telegraph "None of my children voted Conservative and I don't know any of my friends' children who did - so there is clearly some alienation."
Survation whose GE2017 opinion polls turned out to be the most reliable, have today released these figures showing Labour on 45% and Tories on 39%:
Today's poll; 2017 vote share; Current Voting Intention; Change vs election.
CON – 39% (-4); 42.45%; 38.94%; -3.51%.
LAB – 45% (+5); 39.99%; 44.84%; +4.85%.
LD – 7% (nc); 7.37%; 7.25%; -0.12%.
UKIP- 3% (+1); 1.84%; 3.32%; +1.47%.
Others – 6% (-3); 8.35%; 5.53%; -2.82%.
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>>Sounds as though negotiations between Conservatives and DUP are going less than swimmingly:
I'm not close enough to know the reality, but taking your comments as accurate;
Just how *stupid* can politicians be? Lets say the Conservative/DUP alliance falls apart, where do the DUP think they'll be? I mean, FFS, get a life.
It is surprisingly difficult to keep ones finger on the pulse at this distance, and one ends up relying far too much on public statements of intent and is restricted in ones ability to add interpretation, so forgive the question;
Why aren't the Conservatives and the LibDems talking? OK, so not a partnership made in heaven, but its the most significance that the LDs have had in the last 25 years, almost life changing. And surely its the party that in the real word the Conservatives would have the least conflict with?
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The Lib Dems were badly burnt last time. Nick Clegg did the right thing for the country, taking the edge off the Conservatives' more extreme ambitions and getting in a few of his own. For that he and the party were unfairly punished IMO but the lesson has been learnt.
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I think the wrong lesson has been learned; better some impact than none.
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It would certainly be more representative than having the DUP.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 20 Jun 17 at 18:47
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It seems the best agreement to me and would, as you said, take the edge off.
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A promise by the Conservatives to abolish tuition fees might swing it.
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After the shambles that was the election there is only 1 alternative to a Conservative DUP deal, which is a Conservative tory government.
The coalition of the left cannot form a government which could do anything unless a few tories crossed the floor., they do not have the numbers even without the DUP. Realistically the DUP have nowhere else to go, deal or no deal.
Does anybody really want another election in the next few months?
Liberals don't have a leader, tories won't have a leader for long
For all the big talk it's the only deal in town. A year or two down the line might be a different matter
Time for some politicians to grow up.
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>> Why aren't the Conservatives and the LibDems talking? OK, so not a partnership made in
>> heaven, but its the most significance that the LDs have had in the last 25
>> years, almost life changing. And surely its the party that in the real word the
>> Conservatives would have the least conflict with?
>>
I agree - no doubt there has been some contact though.
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There's been a lot of bile thrown at the DUP for being "socially conservative".
There's not a lot wrong for a bit of that to offset the unending stream of politically correct "social liberalism" stuffed down the nation's throats for years.
Some British folk ARE "socially conservative" and why not?
It's a point of view derided by the "progressives", but until the Ministry of Thought is a reality, it's a perfectly allowable opinion to hold.
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>> There's been a lot of bile thrown at the DUP for being "socially conservative".
>> There's not a lot wrong for a bit of that to offset the unending stream
>> of politically correct "social liberalism" stuffed down the nation's throats for years.
What areas do you agree with them, in regards to being socially conservative?
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>> "socially conservative".
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>> What areas do you agree with them, in regards to being socially conservative?
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There a lot of difference between being socially conservative and be a socially minded conservative.
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>> What areas do you agree with them, in regards to being socially conservative?
I suspect he is as homophobic as he is racist. Nottinghams version of the Rev Ian Paisley
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>> What areas do you agree with them, in regards to being socially conservative?
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It is not necessary to share people's views in order to support their right to hold them, nor to believe that a mix of different views is important in a free society.
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>> It is not necessary to share people's views in order to support their right to
>> hold them, nor to believe that a mix of different views is important in a
>> free society.
>>
I know, I didn't say either of those things weren't true.
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>> Sounds as though negotiations between Conservatives and DUP are going less than swimmingly:
In which case Theresa and the DUP will both claim that "no deal is better than a bad deal". If there is a bad deal, they both will claim that in fact it was a very good deal for both parties.
>> Why aren't the Conservatives and the LibDems talking? OK, so not a partnership made in
>> heaven, but its the most significance that the LDs have had in the last 25
>> years, almost life changing. And surely its the party that in the real word the
>> Conservatives would have the least conflict with?
>>
The LibDems said quite clearly during the campaign that they would make any deals with the Tories. In any case, they fought the election on the basis of calling for a second referendum. If they agree to support the Tories even in an informal deal, they will lose any credibility that they may have regained since reneging on the "no student fees" pledge.
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The Lib Dems are quite a broad church. Some are adherents of the Orange Book school of Liberalism. Others are of a more left wing 'Social Democratic' tradition.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Book:_Reclaiming_Liberalism
Those of the latter tendency had reservations about coalition with Tories. IIRC the late Charles Kennedy was openly opposed.
It's also true that a chunk of their vote on 2010 were people voting tactically to keep the Tories out. They felt betrayed by the coalition and abandoned Liberals in the next election.
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Seems today has been designated a Day of Rage and there will be demonstrations in London, organised by different groups including the catchily-named Movement for Justice By Any Means Necessary (MFJ).
Their stance is entirely political - "An MFJ pamphlet entitled “Justice for Grenfell Tower residents†urges: “Walk out of school, take the day off, call in sick, strike! Class war – no justice, no peace, bring down the government!â€"
Comments seem to expect this will turn into something nasty, at best disrupting London, Londoners and tourists and the Queen's Speech but probably a lot worse.
Stretching the already stretched emergency services, and costing the country money which would be better spent elsewhere.
Also seems to have some support from leading lights on the Left, including John McDonnell, who at least did state that the demonstrations should be peaceful.
As someone put in a comment somewhere, will people ever hold a Day of Gratitude?
This country is, unfortunately, going to pot... people have their priorities and attitudes entirely wrong.
Anyone here joining the demo?
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"This country is, unfortunately, going to pot... people have their priorities and attitudes entirely wrong."
Yes - I agree.
"Anyone here joining the demo?"
No - but I would have been there if I were still a stupid leftie student.
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>>This country is, unfortunately, going to pot...
Would have gorn to pot ... if the LimpDems had got anywhere near number 10.
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>> Seems today has been designated a Day of Rage and there will be demonstrations in
>> London, organised by different groups including the catchily-named Movement for Justice By Any Means Necessary
>> (MFJ).
>>
Left wing agitators who come out of the woodwork every now and then, anarchists with the breakdown of law an order on their agenda. They should be ignored though arrested at the slightest transgression.
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>> Left wing agitators who come out of the woodwork every now and then, anarchists with
>> the breakdown of law an order on their agenda. They should be ignored though arrested
>> at the slightest transgression.
'Zero tolerance' of slightest transgression is difficult to enforce; questions of identity and whether law was broken can be hard to deal with in a fast moving environment.
Snatch squads or kettling can inflame rather than calm situation. Too many incidents where peaceful people and those not involved in demo have been injured or killed:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson
Kevin Gately and Blair Peach are examples further back in history.
I really hope today passes off peacefully but hotheads, hot weather etc increase chances of serious disruption.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 21 Jun 17 at 13:07
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>> >
>>
>> Snatch squads or kettling can inflame rather than calm situation. Too many incidents where peaceful
>> people and those not involved in demo have been injured or killed:
>>
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson
>>
>> Kevin Gately and Blair Peach are examples further back in history.
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>> Kettling works. It works in surprising ways and is actually a good deterrent to bad police behaviour, they are not able to get into running battles whereby in the melle and confusion the can beat people to death as the SPG did to Blair Peach
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>> Left wing agitators who come out of the woodwork every now and then, anarchists with
>> the breakdown of law an order on their agenda. They should be ignored though arrested
>> at the slightest transgression.
>>
twitter.com/unpccomix/status/877498888579624960
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>> Left wing agitators who come out of the woodwork every now and then, anarchists with
>> the breakdown of law an order on their agenda. They should be ignored though arrested
>> at the slightest transgression.
Law breakers should be dealt with.
Freedom of speech and the right to protest, on the other hand, are essential parts of democracy.
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>> Law breakers should be dealt with.
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Organiser of #DayOfRage protests Karen Doyle given opportunity multiple times on @talkRADIO by Julia Hartley-Brewer to call for peaceful demo today & disassociate from violence. Karen Doyle refused to take the opportunity. Said her aim was to bring down the Government.
interview here:
bit.ly/2spqd0v
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>>==> talkRADIO by Julia Hartley-Brewer
Thanks for that BrianBP, I used to listen to her on LBC and wondered where she had gorn. I was looking forward to listening to her on tomorrow on Talk Radio from 10am - 1:00 but
I can't receive it down here in Dumbnonia. I can't receive Planet Rock either !&*#!!
Ah well, back to Leftie paddy-from-the-bogs on LBC it is then :(
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Cheers smokie. Another way would be an internet radio I presume, but I don't think I could get away with buying yet another radio, as I have 5 DAB radios as it is :o)
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"interview here:
bit.ly/2spqd0v "
I listened to that incredulous and rolled my eyes heavenward when, in desperation, Karen Doyle introduced the 'R' word.
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>> I listened to that incredulous and rolled my eyes heavenward when, in desperation, Karen Doyle
>> introduced the 'R' word.
Redistribution?
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"Redistribution?"
I listened again, but didn't pick up 'redistribution'.
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I won't be listening, so please advise what word caused offence.
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I'll take a wild stab in the dark and guess that the word was racist.
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"I'll take a wild stab in the dark and guess that the word was racist."
Correct.
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Cor sherlock holmes would be proud at that one. ;-)
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Hehe yeah, obvious I guess if I'd bothered thinking about it...
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>> Anyone here joining the demo?
>>
Demonstrations within one mile of Westminster while parliament is sitting are illegal, aren't they?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 21 Jun 17 at 12:51
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>> Demonstrations within one mile of Westminster while parliament is sitting are illegal, aren't they?
>>
There was a 1km cordon but provision was repealed in 2012:
www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/free-speech-and-protest/protest/protest-around-parliament
Replacement provisions are set out in same link.
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This just about sums up the UK today. What hope for the future?
mobile2.derbund.ch/articles/59442e3cab5c3744ba000001
and translated into English...
This article in a Swiss newspaper today is so ruthlessly clear-sighted in its assessment of just how screwed we are that I just had to translate it for the non-German speakers. Hold on to your hats:
THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE
[Translation by Paula Kirby]
If it weren't so serious, the situation in Great Britain would almost be comical. The country is being governed by a talking robot, nicknamed the Maybot, that somehow managed to visit the burned-out tower block in the west of London without speaking to a single survivor or voluntary helper. Negotiations for the country’s exit from the EU are due to begin on Monday, but no one has even a hint of a plan. The government is dependent on a small party that provides a cozy home for climate change deniers and creationists. Boris Johnson is Foreign Secretary. What in the world has happened to this country?
Two years ago David Cameron emerged from the parliamentary election as the shining victor. He had secured an absolute majority, and as a result it looked as if the career of this cheerful lightweight was headed for surprisingly dizzy heights. The economy was growing faster than in any other industrialised country in the world. Scottish independence and, with it, the break-up of the United Kingdom had been averted. For the first time since 1992, there was a Conservative majority in the House of Commons. Great Britain saw itself as a universally respected actor on the international stage. This was the starting point.
In order to get from this comfortable position to the chaos of the present in the shortest possible time, two things were necessary: first, the Conservative right wingers’ obsessive hatred of the EU, and second, Cameron’s irresponsibility in putting the whole future of the country on the line with his referendum, just to satisfy a few fanatics in his party. It is becoming ever clearer just how extraordinarily bad a decision that was. The fact that Great Britain has become the laughing stock of Europe is directly linked to its vote for Brexit.
The ones who will suffer most will be the British people, who were lied to by the Brexit campaign during the referendum and betrayed and treated like idiots by elements of their press. The shamelessness still knows no bounds: the Daily Express has asked in all seriousness whether the inferno in the tower block was due to the cladding having been designed to meet EU standards. It is a simple matter to discover that the answer to this question is No, but by failing to check it, the newspaper has planted the suspicion that the EU might be to blame for this too. As an aside: a country in which parts of the press are so demonstrably uninterested in truth and exploit a disaster like the fire in Grenfell Tower for their own tasteless ends has a very serious problem.
Already prices are rising in the shops, already inflation is on the up. Investors are holding back. Economic growth has slowed. And that’s before the Brexit negotiations have even begun. With her unnecessary general election, Prime Minister Theresa May has already squandered an eighth of the time available for them. How on earth an undertaking as complex as Brexit is supposed to be agreed in the time remaining is a mystery.
Great Britain will end up leaving its most important trading partner and will be left weaker in every respect. It would make economic sense to stay in the single market and the customs union, but that would mean being subject to regulations over which Britain no longer had any say. It would be better to have stayed in the EU in the first place. So the government now needs to develop a plan that is both politically acceptable and brings the fewest possible economic disadvantages. It’s a question of damage limitation, nothing more; yet even now there are still politicians strutting around Westminster smugly trumpeting that it will be the EU that comes off worst if it doesn’t toe the line.
The EU is going to be dealing with a government that has no idea what kind of Brexit it wants, led by an unrealistic politician whose days are numbered; and a party in which old trenches are being opened up again: moderate Tories are currently hoping to be able to bring about a softer exit after all, but the hardliners in the party – among them more than a few pigheadedly obstinate ideologues – are already threatening rebellion. An epic battle lies ahead, and it will paralyse the government.
EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that he now expects the Brits to finally set out their position clearly, since he cannot negotiate with himself. The irony of this statement is that it would actually be in Britain’s best interests if he did just that. At least that way they’d have one representative on their side who grasps the scale of the task and is actually capable of securing a deal that will be fair to both sides. The Brits do not have a single negotiator of this stature in their ranks. And quite apart from the Brexit terms, both the debate and the referendum have proven to be toxic in ways that are now making themselves felt.
British society is now more divided than at any time since the English civil war in the 17th century, a fact that was demonstrated anew in the general election, in which a good 80% of the votes were cast for the two largest parties. Neither of these parties was offering a centrist programme: the election was a choice between the hard right and the hard left. The political centre has been abandoned, and that is never a good sign. In a country like Great Britain, that for so long had a reputation for pragmatism and rationality, it is grounds for real concern. The situation is getting decidedly out of hand.
After the loss of its empire, the United Kingdom sought a new place in the world. It finally found it, as a strong, awkward and influential part of a larger union: the EU. Now it has given up this place quite needlessly. The consequence, as is now becoming clear, is a veritable identity crisis from which it will take the country a very long time to recover.
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I have just watched her speak in The Commons
I still believe, as I posted a while back, that the lady has a medical problem ( not just diabetes)
Her reply ( speech) to the minister was awful.
She was reading her script very slowly and it was painful to watch.
Eventually Bercow interrupted and at length had to remind her and others to not give speeches but to ask questions.
She resumed and continued her speech.
I do not like her but I do not see how she can continue.
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General Election 2017 - Vol 3 - Dog
