Continuing discussion
507230
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 14 Jul 16 at 10:16
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Our family finances deteriorated significantly under Cameron's premiership:
Child Benefit - gone
Student Loans - up £6,000 per year for 4 years for one child and by at least three years for the other.
Company car tax up from £100 per month to £175 and going up over the next few years to £250 per month (a hidden tax really).
Low interest rates resulting in limited returns from savings.
Devastation to the value of my shares, directly due to his policies.
Increase in tax on buy to let properties (but not for limited companies) resulting in my future income levels being reduced even further.
I am glad to see him go.
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At a guess Zippy you are still not in a bad position compared to many:
- Company car
- Savings
- Shares
- At least one buy to let property
My oldest left Uni with the sort of loan debt you are talking about but that was in Cameron's early days so I don't think he was to blame.
Low interest works both ways doesn't it, those with mortgages and loans benefit. maybe you have neither.
Since he's been in office share prices worldwide have been affected by a whole raft of factors.
He may not have been perfect but he's been a lot better than his predecessors and some of the alternatives.
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>>My oldest left Uni with the sort of loan debt you are talking about but that was in Cameron's early days so I don't think he was to blame.
He was responsible for the tuition fee rise from £3,000 per annum to £9,000 per annum. My eldest will have an extra £24,000 at least on her loan compared to someone that started the year before. The interest rates are also punitive compared to commercial loans. My youngest will have to pay at least £18,000 extra and when Cameron when to university tuition was free for the student.
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Sorry to pick up on this one too,
If the interest rates are punitive compared to commercial loans why not take out a loan elsewhere?
Free university tuition is a political choice across party boundaries, should it come out of general taxation? Is it the best way to fund higher education? Is higher education a right or a life choice?
Is the degree worth the money in terms of increased income opportunities?
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>>If the interest rates are punitive compared to commercial loans why not take out a loan elsewhere?
Students are usually 18 when they take out a student loan and have no assets. No bank is going to give a person with no assets a loan of £48,000 (my eldest's loan value) over 30 years with no security.
I don't have a problem with interest being charged but the rates that are being charges are similar to credit card rates which does not seem to be equitable, perhaps matching inflation would be fairer?
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 13 Jul 16 at 15:04
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I thought the rate charged is between RPI and RPI+3%, depending on income? The highest rate kicking in when you earn >£40k? How much do they charge?
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>> I don't have a problem with interest being charged but the rates that are being
>> charges are similar to credit card rates
I'm pretty sure they are a great deal lower than that. Perhaps the same per year as credit cards charge for a month.
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www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk/portal/page?_pageid=93,6678642&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
Where can I get a credit card that will lend me money at a rate of RPI + 3%? Per annum. For decades. You do talk some rubbish.
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Student fees! Robbery! When you look at the contact time and the number of weeks students are actually in University any form of 'value for money' it is not. Universities seem able to undertake unbridled expansion projects so clearly money is not an issue for them.
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>> Our family finances deteriorated significantly under Cameron's premiership:
>>
Zippy,
How many of these would have happened anyway or were long overdue?
Child benefit - should never have been universal, did the well off ever really need it?
Company car tax - how much has the price of a car changed in that time plus the environmental tax pressures
Low interest rates - worldwide phenomenon
Share prices - depends on your shares, my tiny "portfolio" is worth today double what it was in 2011
Buy to let taxation and Student loans are the only ones you can possibly say might not have happened under another government but you will find as many people who agree with as you will who disagree.
I share the same situation in a lot of ways but think that while I may not have liked the changes, I can see why they happened and do not particularly blame Cameron personally, or even the Tories for the effect on my personal / family finances, and I cannot really make much of a case for unfairness in the changes you list.
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>>Company car tax - how much has the price of a car changed in that time plus the environmental tax pressures
Company car tax is based on the CO2 output of the car and the recommended retail price of the car (not the discounted price) so as prices have increased so has the tax. Also the Co2 rates have increased so a car that outputs 169 grams of CO2 per mile has seen the tax rise from 26% of its value in 2014 to 37% in 2016. As a company car driver I have no choice, I cannot do my job without a company car.
The environmental tax pressures are a red herring because company car drivers need their cars and would buy their own cars otherwise and still pollute and charge back the cost to the H.M.R.C. so overall pollution levels wouldn't change. With regards to the CO2 figures reported by manufacturers, we all know these are a fallacy and have no meaning in the real world.
>>Chid benefit.
I was more annoyed about how it was implemented. I don't get it, yet a couple that earn £49,000 each still do - this is clearly unfair and the cut off should have been based on the whole family's income which may have allowed the cut off point to be raised.
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> The environmental tax pressures are a red herring because company car drivers need their cars
>> and would buy their own cars otherwise and still pollute and charge back the cost
>> to the H.M.R.C. so overall pollution levels wouldn't change.
As private cars are taxed on co2 it would be quite odd to have company cars have no element of that in their taxation.
the cut
>> off should have been based on the whole family's income which may have allowed the
>> cut off point to be raised.
>>
Thing is it's only given to one person not both. Otherwise it would be a bit unfair.
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Zippy,
I know what company car tax is based on. As I say I share most of your losses I just don't share your blaming Cameron or your personal view of their "unfairness".
I know part of my company car tax is down to the fact that I have chosen, in the years Cameron was PM, to drive a BMW & now a high spec Golf. It's still better than running my own car, by a long way. Very few company car drivers who have any choice of car have basic models which is, after all, all anyone "needs" to do their job.
Yes the child benefit wasn't well implemented but cannot honestly say it was needed when I had it.
Does anyone earning 49 grand a year really need child benefit.
I do reckon I pay less tax in relative terms than I would have without the "Cameron years" and that the country is better off, at least in economic terms, than it would have been under a Brown / Milliband government.
Though how the brexit economics will work in the next year or two is anybody's guess.
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I do reckon I pay less tax in relative terms than I would have without the "Cameron years"...
And I'm sure I don't. In 2008-09 I paid 30.6% of my taxable income in income tax and NI; in 2015-16 it was 33.7%. And that's on an income that has just recovered in real terms to its 2007 value.
Those thinking a recession is a price worth paying for 'sovereignty' probably haven't done the maths. We haven't recovered from the last one yet.
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Maybe I phrased it badly WDB. My figures are probably not that much different to yours, but I certainly think I would have paid and would be paying more in a Brown/Milliband world for the last 6 years
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Yes, I agree we can't know that for certain. I am sure about the recession, though. I reckon it cost me more than £25,000 in my peak child-raising years (not counting the Child Benefit Mrs Beest no longer gets because of my income; we share a bank account but not a tax return!) so I'm in no hurry to go through another one with university fees looming.
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>> As a company car driver I have no choice, I cannot do my job without a company car.
But if you have a choice of car then you can limit the tax paid. I went for an Audi A3 (big enough for us at the moment) with a petrol turbo. Emissions means I currently pay tax at 18%. It comes to about £186 in tax because of the list price. The same engine or similar is available in other cars.
As for percentages of take home, mine about the same in 2008/2009 and 2015/2016. But I must earn a fair bit less than WDB and others.
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>> Increase in tax on buy to let properties (but not for limited companies) resulting in
>> my future income levels being reduced even further.
Wait for the rules for limited companies:
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/tax-deductibility-of-corporate-interest-expense/tax-deductibility-of-corporate-interest-expense-consultation
>> I am glad to see him go.
You'd have preferred Gordon Brown & Ed Miliband? Really?
You can't blame the tax rises during the time DC has been PM on anybody other than Gordon Brown. The country is bust and needs to get the tax in somehow.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 13 Jul 16 at 15:27
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>>
>> You can't blame the tax rises during the time DC has been PM on anybody
>> other than Gordon Brown. The country is bust and needs to get the tax in
>> somehow.
>>
No you are WRONG.
Money grows on trees. It is unfair to pay any tax. And we all want the best in services.
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If the country is bust you don't take the money of people who can least afford it and put them in more poverty.
After the 2008 debacle the ones who caused the crisis still got away with it.Nothing really has changed the way our financial services are run in my opinion.
It is ok for Cameron to crack jokes in the house of commons, but tell that to the steelworker in Port Talbot who is likely to lose his job.
I hope she can deliver for the sake of this country but it will be a very difficult task to deliver Brexit.
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We can't protect everyone from everything, Dutchie. Low-value manufacturing can be done in low-cost economies, so it will be. We need to be sure to make and attract the investment that moves areas built on old industries on to new things, so they don't become wastelands. Manufacturers like Toyota and Nissan have shown that British workers, properly managed, are as good as anyone, but we need to keep looking for the next one. Theresa May's exit team will have to think very hard about how they're not going to destroy that hope.
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>> Low interest rates resulting in limited returns from savings.
>>
>
That's so unjust. Obviously there ought to be two sets of interest rates - high for savers like us, and low for poorer people struggling to pay mortgages.
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>> It is ok for Cameron to crack jokes in the house of commons, but tell that to the steelworker in
>> Port Talbot who is likely to lose his job.
But most of those will have voted to leave the EU thus jeopordising the sale of TATA steel's Port Talbot works. If they lose their jobs they know who to blame.
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I'm surprised T.M didn't pick certain posters off here to run the new Government. Some of you make more sense than many in the present H.P! ;-)
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But most of those will have voted to leave the EU thus jeopordising the sale> of TATA steel's Port Talbot works. If they lose their jobs they know who to
>> blame.
Who's to say how they voted, perhaps they thought their jobs were gone anyway? Or perhaps being in the EU didn't help?
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The majority in the area voted to leave. The area is very dependent on TATA steel for employment and the loss of the jobs impacts more than just the steelworkers. So maybe they didn't all vote to leave but the majority of the local population did.
Even if being in the EU didn't help, voting to leave and waiting up to 2 years before we leave the EU certainly isn't helping them.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 14 Jul 16 at 10:09
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Could be a sweet piece of political revenge: "You said you wanted it, now off you go to Brussels and negotiate it."
The danger is that we'll be out on our elbow in a week because the rest of Europe can't stand him.
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Apparently the FTSE 100 has recently entered a Bull Market.
I wonder how long that will last? Now, as expressed previously, I fully hope & expect to have spent my private pension by the time I reach 65, surely that must be good for peeps who take a longer outlook on life than what I do.
I try to understand the larger world picture of finance, monetary policies, forecasts et al but it just makes my head spin after reading for an hour or so...
At least we live in interesting times. I hate boring.
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Remember that FTSE100 companies are mostly just quoted in the UK. They tend to do business in many countries, which insulates them from the tribulations of any one economy. A UK recession will more seriously affect the next tier down, which depend on a strong UK economy to make their money.
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Yes, thanks WdB. I understand that, which is why on post referendum Friday I split my equity purchases between UK companies and multinationals thus hedging my bets. It would have been better to wait until Monday pm after the double dip which I didn't foresee. Now recovered my Monday losses but the hard part, as always, is deciding when to take a profit ( it's never wrong to take a profit).
I have all my fingers & toes crossed for a couple of speculative small oil & technology international plays at the moment. It could all go horribly wrong, even after due dilgence.
Last edited by: legacylad on Wed 13 Jul 16 at 21:10
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....I'm not sure whether this is complete foolishness, or a political masterstroke....
On one hand, it's Boris and he will be completely unpredictable...
On the other hand, TM has him inside the tent p***ing out; It gives "visible Brexit balance" in the cabinet (but I doubt he'll get very involved in Brexit at all - that will David Davis's job, and I don't think he'll suffer Boris kindly); he'll be given work to do that will keep him out of mischief (and if he doesn't do it, he'll probably be sacked); and, subject to no future surprise appointment, it has disembowelled (and castrated) Michael Gove at a stroke.
Be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Liam Fox is a good Austerity choice for negotiating our new trade deals. Those hotel rooms in Belarus and Albania don't come cheap, and his special advisor can go along without needing an extra one.
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BoJo will need to grow up a bit. He's done the right stuff to attract media attention and be "one of us" (clowning around on zipwires, Have I Got news For You, gratuitous offensiveness) and now he's in a real serious job with real work to do. I'd have him "on probation" for a few months if it was me...
I know he was Mayor of London but this is a different ballgame...
T&E's point above about him being inside the tent is a good one.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 14 Jul 16 at 10:44
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With Boris in, hardly a surprise that there is no role in cabinet for Gove.
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You can get what you want and still not get what you want. It's not easy being toxic.
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Politics is a long process I think he will be back, as will Osborne.
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Osborne will be, as he's (a) younger, and (b) has no other options apart from wallpaper. Gove could go back to being a clever-clever journalist - or he may take the view that May's tenure will be short, pending an election, and he could position himself to coordinate a Nasty Right coup against a leadership that will have to take the blame for the bumpy ride to come.
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Gove and Leadsom got no placements in the cabinet because of their ambitions to be P.M, too dangerous to have around and have any real power, especially back-stabbing Gove. keep enemies close - but not too close!
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...and Johnson showed no ambition to be PM? He'd have been the the race too if Gove hadn't skewered him first.
Leadsom has no ministerial experience and hardly came out of the leadership race looking like cabinet material - unless appearing wooden is a qualification, I suppose
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 14 Jul 16 at 12:32
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>>and Johnson showed no ambition to be PM?
He did, but he is controllable, and he also has the ability to do the job and brings a touch of the "common" man to the face of the public. I always think of him in the same way as the Duke of E, always prepared to speak his true mind at times, tells it as it is, and just like the D of E is prone to the odd gaffe here and there, but down at heart a "good sort".
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A bit on one of the news programmes said Boris won't be especially welcome in Europe after some of his comments during the campaign (and some other faux pas's on "foreign subjects" which I forget now). They seemed to be implying that his only saving grace seemed to be he speaks a number of languages.
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...just like the D of E is prone to the odd gaffe here and there, but down at heart a "good sort".
I think that's exactly what he wants you to think.
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I try to see the good in most folk....unfortunately too many let me down!
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>> at heart a "good sort".
>> I think that's exactly what he wants you to think.
We don't know Boris Johnson well, but for various reasons we've known him slightly since he was a little blond nipper.
He's a professional politician of course, nose permanently to the grindstone and tough as they come. He's also very bright indeed like his parents and siblings, and has a pleasant personality when he can spare the time.
I like in particular his scruffy sartorial turnout, hands in pockets and shirt showing at the back. That (rather than the great ability) reminds me of myself.
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Anyone get the impression on Sky News that Adam Boulton doesn't have much time for fellow correspondent Beth Rigby? Bit harsh if he is as she's not been involved for very long yet.
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I see from the Beeb that
"Lib Dem MP Tom Brake asks for a debate on "the fantastic contribution of our leisure industries", which could explore the possibility of "a transcontinental network of zipwires to allow the new foreign secretary to travel in the manner to which he's accustomed". "
Almost funny.
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Is it entirely PM's decision on who will get what portfolio?
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You're obviously not watching Sky News, Movi, or you'd be able to join in with the online voting for portfolios and evictions.
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I find it bit odd that ministers get portfolios often without having enough background in that industry/sector.
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>> I find it bit odd that ministers get portfolios often without having enough background in
>> that industry/sector.
>>
Only way it can be done, you only have 350 or so people to choose from, and these days many, if not most, of them are professional politicians with a degree in politics & PPE and never had a "real" job in their lives.
Thankfully we have a professional civil service who actually run the various departments. The minister's purpose is to make the political decisions on the subject with their guidance as to what that will actually mean
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They are leaders, decision makers who steer and direct, and they are dependent on technical specialists (i.e. civil servants) to provide the required decision-making data.
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Very true, Commerdriver and Smokie, and it's just as well that we have the Civil Service, who are trained by experience.
Most of us who have or had responsible jobs have had training for them, either by exam qualification or through experience, or both. Politicians get moved from department to department at elections and reshuffles, and know nothing about the work of their new department.
Frightening, isn't it! No wonder so many of them make a pigs' breakfast of their jobs.
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Is it me or does the new cabinet seem to be slightly more "right wing" than the previous one!?
Regarding Brexit; I was surprised to hear that May has suggested that EU citizens right to remain will be dependent on negotiations. This stinks of Idi Amin and Mugabe. How is it equitable to kick out people that have lived here for years, invested in the country and bought homes here, when they were invited to do so. To even mention this as a negotiating tactic is bad form.
If we do kick out foreigners then expect the foreigners to kick out UK citizens.
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>> EU citizens right to remain will be dependent on negotiations
In reality those who are already settled here will be allowed to stay.
Her comment is to prevent flood of people coming from EU as UK is still officially in EU.
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>> To even mention this as a negotiating tactic is bad form.
>>
Hopefully she is simply starting with no commitments as this stage. I think most British people would be horrified at expelling people who have done nothing wrong. But then I thought that the British people would vote to remain in the EU.
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>> I think most British people would be horrified at expelling people who have done nothing wrong. But then I thought that the British people would vote to remain in the EU.
I would like to think so, but I am not so sure. There seems to be more openly racist people around every day!
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 15 Jul 16 at 14:21
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>> I would like to think so, but I am not so sure. There seems to
>> be more openly racist people around every day!
>>
That's just what I meant
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>> Is it me or does the new cabinet seem to be slightly more "right wing"
>> than the previous one!?
no can't say i noticed it. I did notice alot more are state education rather than privately.
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To even
>> mention this as a negotiating tactic is bad form.
Not really. Nothing is bad form in a negotiation except bad faith. Everything that doesn't automatically follow will have to be explicitly covered. And in a negotiation, you never give anything away, you must have something in return.
I suspect in that example the basic position will be simple; yours can stay here if ours can stay there.
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It would be wrong for the UK government to promise anything. Who knows how the negotiations will go. I really really hope anyone here gets to stay. I personally hope there is some form of free movement of people.
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It just goes to show how easy it is to pick holes in anyone these days. She has taken a guarded position, who can blame her?
Well for sure someone will...
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>> I suspect in that example the basic position will be simple; yours can stay here
>> if ours can stay there.
>>
and maybe the follow on; yours can come here if ours can go there
either on an EU wide basis or individual countries
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Did she really say this:
“It would make so much more sense if those with the big fields do the sheep, and those with the hill farms do the butterflies. That would make a lot more sense for the UK and it’s perfectly possible but only if we leave the EU and sort it out for ourselves.â€
I realise I am quoting out of context.
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Guardian also attributes this to her:
During the campaign, she said cash for farmers should continue “in the short term whilst we think about what makes senseâ€, which may cause concern in the industry given their reliance on subsidies.
Leadsom hinted there should be wider a shakeup of the system, saying: “Some of the things that would make sense would be environmental trading credits, because at the moment you have farmers who have to do a bit of environmental planning and a bit of farming just to meet the EU requirements.
In 2007, Leadsom argued that “subsidies must be abolished†in an article on how to rejuvenate British farming.
So she might try to shake-up the common agriculture policy.
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I'm no expert but my understanding is that the EU was such a good cash cow (sorry for pun!) for large farm(er)s that farms have been bought up and merged by companies hell bent on exploiting the subsidies. Set aside, where they are paid to not grow anything, does seem bizarre.
I am seeing solar power crops springing up all over the place, presumably to exploit government subsidies (cynical? Me? :-) )
Also round here farms and bits of farms being sold off to property developers for considerable amounts.
The papers would have us believe that we and the supermarkets are the cause of farmers going out of business. I don't think there is much truth in that, not for ordinary farmers - maybe for "specialists" like hill farmers and the like. As someone once said to me, you never see a poor farmer.
I could well be talking absolute rubbish however...
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An acquaintance of mine drives a milk tanker, collecting at local farms. The press would have you think they are all on the point of collapse being screwed by the supermarkets into the ground.
His tales are otherwise, although the two 'proper' farmers I know are getting rid of their flocks, in fact have already done so, and gone into beef cattle, so maybe there is some truth in the dairy not being very profitable. Or maybe it's just not as profitable as beef.
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Most milk comes from herds, LL, not flocks. The sheepy stuff makes good cheese, though. Manchego, Roquefort - mmm!
};---)
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Correct WdB...it's a long time since I did my English Language o levels! Should have said the only two ' proper' farmers I know were both hill sheep farmers. I don't know any dairy farmers. Quite a few 'gentlemen' farmers around here though, wot I know to speak to in' t'pub. They turn up in their new Rangies, personalised plates, go on cruises at Xmas & New Year, so I can only assume they are doing very well indeed out of subsidies. There's no arable round here. Good luck to them. But when they cry the poor tale it pees me off.
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I have worked with a farmers' milk cooperative and can say that they were selling milk below cost. I don't know if other parts of the farmers' farms were profitable but milk certainly wasn't!
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Be isn't there a cap on the CAP payment at around £100k per farmer? Not to say that they can't operate as family groups, but I'm not so sure it's as easy as it used to be... It's the selling off land for development that keeps many farms going with current commodity prices and supermarket pressure... Food prices have been deflating at 1~2% per year for the last few years... You don't have to sell many acres for development to keep you in Range Rovers ;£
And almost none f the solar sites you see will have been developed by or operated by the farmers - they'll just be renting the land to the solar developer as a way of diversifying land use and a more attractive rent than plain farm land - up to £1k+ per acre compared to the agricultural value of £200~500 an acre. Smart farmers could see the end of CAP anyway and are preempting that in some cases... And a say that as one of our businesses has funded 65MW solar sites in the last 12 months, all on leased land in the UK, so with a little knowledge of farming garnered over the last few years?..
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>> Did she really say this:
>>
>> “It would make so much more sense if those with the big fields do the
>> sheep, and those with the hill farms do the butterflies.
I don''t think there's any context in which that would make sense. I've already come to the conclusion that she and Elizabeth Truss are there to to fulfil the "more women" expectation.
Leadsom speaks with an air of confidence but it seems likely that she isn't very bright. Truss is a very poor speaker, let's hope she makes up for it with competence on other dimensions.
I've never been impressed with Hammond but he seems to have a good reputation. I was hoping Jeremy Hunt would cop it but presumably nobody else vaguely capable wants the NHS brief.
I'm hoping Alexander Boris de Pfeffel will be a brilliant Foreign Minister. Perhaps he's the only one who can speak French? He is undoubtedly talented enough. It's been said in a pejorative way that such success as he had as Mayor of London was only because he surrounded himself with excellent people - very sensible, in my book. He will either rise to the job or sink like a stone.
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Will there be a vote in the House of Commons to allow fox hunting to begin again.
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>>'m hoping Alexander Boris de Pfeffel will be a brilliant Foreign Minister. Perhaps he's the only one who can speak French? He is undoubtedly talented enough.>>
Boris speaks several languages, is a very great deal more clever than people give him credit (a carefully conceived image) and has academical achievements that very few others are able to boast about. I think he will prove a splendid Foreign Secretary.
But it's often said that there's a thin dividing line between genius and madness....:-)
An example of Boris at his finest (Wiff Waff):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uix9kXIMVRM
(more examples follow if you let the clip run)
Last edited by: Stuartli on Fri 15 Jul 16 at 19:43
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He has a 2:1, but was expecting a first. Speaks several languages, with undoubted fluency in some, gained whilst his father was working for the EU in Brussels. Any further academic achievements, bordering on genius?
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Fri 15 Jul 16 at 20:20
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Thanks Stuart, I've just spent a half an hour chuckling away at those waiting for dawn to break!
Pat
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Just seen (in the Telegraph online) a reported commitment by the new PM that Article 50 will not be triggered without an agreed UK approach.
Hope she's tougher with Europe than she is with the SNP
EDIT Mods isn't it time we had a brexit thread now the leadership election is done?
Last edited by: commerdriver on Fri 15 Jul 16 at 18:06
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Boris and Teresa will have an early test of their abilities in confronting the Turkish situation.
Plus a news item pointed out that that Russia will "not be pleased" if access from the Black Sea is affected so their support for the Syrian attacks will be screwed.
Yet another hot item to be dealt with.
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Nothing to do with this thread. This is not a good development... period. Cameron will like his new temporary £16m house! I know I would.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sat 16 Jul 16 at 02:18
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Tory Leadership thread Vol 1 - zippy
