***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 25 *****
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On-going Debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 19:12
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fluffy, you are a clown.
Tue 21 Jun 16 13:48 I have decided to Vote Remain.
Fri 17 Jun 16 20:28 Save the U.K. and Vote Leave.
Sat 11 Jun 16 19:53 Boris Johnson has my vote
Mon 9 May 16 19:36 I am becoming confused which way to vote in the E.U. Referendum.
Sun 8 May 16 15:13 I am more inclined to VOTE REMAIN than VOTE LEAVE at this moment.
Thu 5 May 16 19:48 At this moment you all forum members are convinsing me to VOTE LEAVE.
Sun 1 May 16 18:48 At the moment I am tempted to Vote Leave but I have doubts.
Fri 22 Apr 16 19:06 I am going to vote to LEAVE the European union
Fri 22 Apr 16 17:08 I have a doubt to stay IN and I have a doubt to stay OUT.
Fri 22 Apr 16 16:12 I am tempted to vote IN
Tue 12 Apr 16 21:37 Roger you are convincing me to vote No in the E.U.referendum.
Sun 10 Apr 16 14:10 I am tempted to vote UKIP and join the Vote Leave campaign.
Sat 9 Apr 16 21:23 David Cameron is tempting me to vote to Leave
Fri 8 Apr 16 16:07 My thought is to Remain as well.
Thu 7 Apr 16 16:29 I am confused about whether to vote IN or OUT
Wed 6 Apr 16 20:24 At this moment I am more in mind to vote to leave the European Union.
Sun 3 Apr 16 11:32 1 am still confused whether to vote IN our OUT
Sat 2 Apr 16 20:54 I would vote no
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Probably has no vote anyway. Too disorganised to be on the register….
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And I am on the electoral register.
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I wonder what would happen with a dead heat? Improbable, but not impossible.
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Not true.
There is a 50/50 chance that it IS impossible.
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>>
>> Not true.
>> There is a 50/50 chance that it IS impossible.
>>
Which does not actually make it impossible.
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Yes it does. If the total number of voters is an odd number a draw is impossible.
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>> Yes it does. If the total number of voters is an odd number a draw
>> is impossible.
>>
I do know that is what you meant. But as we don't know how many votes will be cast a tie is not impossible at this stage.
Now, is this the five minute argument or the ten minute one?
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Ten minutes
Yes at this stage we do not know the number of voters could be even so today it would be fair to say a draws is possible.
When it comes to the actual referendum though the number of voters must be even before there is a possibility of a draw, so in 50% of all possible eventualities a draw is impossible.
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So if you have an odd number of total voters and just one spoils their paper then you are back to an even number of counted papers but not voters.
Is that right?
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Yes but at the end of the day the total number of voters i.e eligible votes is either odd or even.
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What made you change your mind fluffy?
I got the impression you wanted to vote out?
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A storming performance by RD tonight. Called out Bozza's two leaden cronies (I know Gisela Stewart but who is Andrea Leadsom? She was dreadful!) for repeating clear falsehoods about security and employment and gave a superbly measured, weighty summing up at the end. She's shot up in my estimation; a future PM, quite possibly.
Saddiq Khan came across as a little aggressive, but perhaps he needed to be to counteract the usual avalanche of empty blather from Bozza, who doesn't actually believe it himself. Frances O'Grady was less polished but impressed with her sincerity.
No point asking if anyone here was swayed by the arguments because we've done all that. But you'd have to be a true one-eyed Outie with fingers in both ears not to be impressed by Ruth Davidson tonight.
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>> two leaden cronies (I know Gisela Stewart
The German migrant :-) How many points did she need to stay?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 22:19
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Surprised about this German lady talking about immigration.She is here isn't she?
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Surprising how many want to pull up the drawbridge. I heard similar arguments from a Sikh shopkeeper (60ish, female) last week. Suspect she'd arrived as a child because she mentioned a father in Derby.
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A foreign surgeon saved my live..A Polish nurse got me out of a lot of pain once having chemo.
And a Brit big Jo toke a caught a girder which fell down whilst we where working in a ship and would have killed me.Living is strange.
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>>Surprising how many want to pull up the drawbridge
Priti Patel is another - come over as full of self-interest whenever I hear her. (ps I know she was born in England before someone comments!)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 21 Jun 16 at 23:15
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"Surprising how many want to pull up the drawbridge."
Really? If you came to seek a better life 50 years ago and adapted to the British version of civilisation, would you want to bring in people intent on importing the hell-hole that they came from? [as related to me by a chap from Sri Lanka]
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>> would you want to bring in people intent on importing the hell-hole that they came from?
Germany?
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Ruth Davidson and Nicola Sturgeon are, by some distance, the best female politicians in the UK.
Ruth is in the position of having the opportunity of scooping up centre voters up here, with the Lib Dems being dead outside the Highlands, and the SNP sliding more to the left - she lets herself down, however, by toeing the rUK Tory line of University fees and NHS prescription charges which are not popular up here.
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...or down here!
Yes, pity she's a Tory. Can't have it all, I suppose.
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Many will probably vote exit because of these two (Clarkson and May) :-)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPz179E7rhA
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Do you think?
I wouldn't choose a particular car to buy on the strength of their opinion, never mind vote a particular way - either because I believed them or to show how terribly independent I was.
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Did you not see the :-)
But I will be glad to see Friday now.
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>> But I will be glad to see Friday now.
You and me both.
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>> >> But I will be glad to see Friday now.
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>> You and me both.
>>
And me. Kebab (foreign muck) night.
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Nope. Missed it completely. Sorry
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"Ruth is in the position of having the opportunity of scooping up centre voters up here,"
I have always been very impressed by Ruth Davidson; her politics borders on Realism - which would be far too much for the Scots to bear.
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>> A storming performance by RD tonight. Called out Bozza's two leaden cronies (I know Gisela
>> Stewart but who is Andrea Leadsom? She was dreadful!)
Leadsom is MP for South Northamptonshire - Towcester/Brackley and their surrounding villages. Not my MP at present but will be next time as the boundaries have been gerrymandered.
She always grates with me but being a radio man I only usually hear her. The way in which she told porkies last night and then ended each delivery with a smug grin was truly awful. Agree that Ruth Davidson was much more convincing.
Sadiq K has every reason to be aggressive with the Tories Mayoral campaign which, with Boris's endorsement, went well beyond dog whistling to link his Islamic faith to terror etc.
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www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3652901/Are-neighbours-Interactive-map-reveals-Eurosceptic-areas-Britain-ahead-EU-referendum.html
I can understand the England map. But why whole of Scotland is so much inclined towards EU?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 10:16
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Because if everything is England's fault nothing can be the EU's fault.
Seriously it is partly because the big brexit scare of hordes of foreign immigrants doesn't affect Scotland as much, simple matter of geography
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 10:19
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Not so many Little Englanders in Scotland for some reason.
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>> Not so many Little Englanders in Scotland for some reason.
>>
Stands to reason, they'd be little Scotlanders.
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It has been my impression over the decades that those parts of the British isles which maintained a stronger Celtic identify than those which were governed by the Anglo-Saxons have a more Meditteranean outlook and more similarities to Meditteranean cultures then I have observed in Englandshire. We can expect the end of the UK if we vote Brexit, there will be a united Ireland (perhaps after a protracted, irresolvable conflict), and independent republics in Scotland in Wales. England will become an isolated monarchy in the fullness of time.
I are sad. We are so much stronger together. Ask Yugoslavia. What was the point of all that separation and conflict when they all want to come back together under the EU flag?
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>> We can expect the end of the UK if we vote Brexit, there will be a united Ireland (perhaps after >> a protracted, irresolvable conflict), and independent republics in Scotland
>> in Wales. England will become an isolated monarchy in the fullness of time.
>>
Now there's a project fear prediction.
Apart from the EU's general unwillingness to take on the fragmented parts of a separate UK, Scotland and Wales would be geographically challenging as EU members, most of whose trade would have to flow through England.
Also for Scotland especially the contradiction of the SNP's claims that "We love the EU" and "We don't want austerity" would become very apparent.
Anyway, it's all hypothetical, we will vote to remain tomorrow,
And I agree with you that "We are so much stronger together"
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>> Now there's a project fear prediction.
Why? I thought Leavers are of the opinion that "independence" is a Good Thing. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
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We can expect the end of the UK if we vote Brexit, there will be a united Ireland (perhaps after a protracted, irresolvable conflict), and independent republics in Scotland> in Wales. England will become an isolated monarchy in the fullness of time.
That's some leap there, a united ireland? I don't think any of the countries on the British Isles will be isolated, simple geography will see to that.
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Not to be taken literally but not without foundation either. The other UK nations would resent being dragged out of the EU by English xenophobia, and this would again raise the political temperature in Scotland and create new momentum for independence. Less likely in Northern Ireland and less so still in Wales but it could happen.
Only if there's a Leave majority, though, which thankfully seems unlikely now.
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Fair enough if you think that, i think it's remote at best.
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Cameron is still begging/brainwashing at the last moment.
His private advisers must have said they couldn't guarantee a remain win yet.
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I might be back in Blighty in time to vote tomorrow.... Just remembered I'm off to Turkey in early July and better not pack my 'Keep calm and put bacon on' T shirt.
Wouldn't want to cause offence
Roll on Friday.
Proper beer
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The betting patterns have been quoted by many here who claim that most people are betting on Remain. According to William Hill, that is not the case with two out of three punters opting for Leave. Remain voters are staking more cash which gives a false impression of how the numbers pan out.
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Scotland's immigrant population (residents born abroad) has been been growing faster than the UK's. Probably still materially lower in total but can't be far off now.
The puzzle to me is how sensitive they are to being "ruled by Westminster" while at the same time delighted to be in the EU. They need to be part of something, but they just can't get past the anti-English feeling? Surely not.
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Of course they can. They voted "No" just last year.
They recognise that EU "control" is actually loser and more tuneable and beneficial than Westminster "control". They can be more independent in the EU and out of the UK than in the UK and out of the EU.
Maybe. I'm just plastic Jock waffling from Berkshire.
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Perhaps they can see the difference. Leadson yesterday trotted out the 'British laws made in Brussels' nonsense and was flattened by Davidson for her trouble. Scottish laws - or many of them - genuinely do come from Westminster, which must put statutory instruments to adopt EU standards on fertilizer additives in proper perspective.
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They need to be part
>> of something, but they just can't get past the anti-English feeling? Surely not.
>>
Doing some reading, i think that's a big part of it for many. Anyone but england syndrome.
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Except for that pesky "No" vote last year.
Upon whose shoulder does the Glasgow Salad truly reside, England's or Scotland's?
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>> Upon whose shoulder does the Glasgow Salad truly reside, England's or Scotland's?
>>
Interesting you called it a "Glasgow" salad
As another "plastic Scot" having spent my entire working life since graduation south of the border, now in deepest South Buckinghamshire, I think it rests mainly on west of Scotland shoulders, I have worked in recent years, fairly extensively in Edinburgh and it is markedly less prominent there.
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The two aren't mutually exclusive. I never said it was a majority, just a large part for many.
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Further to my earlier post, a quote from a William Hill spokesperson -
'While 75 per cent of the total money bet at William Hill had gone on Remain, he said: “In terms of the actual numbers of bets made it’s the other way round: 75 per cent of bets on Leave and 25 per cent on Remain.â€
He admitted: “At the back of my mind, there is the possibility that the high percentage of individual bets on Leave could be an indicator that we got it wrong.
“And in the last general election, a lot of small staking punters [like those now betting on Leave] voted for an outright Tory majority when we were saying it wasn’t going to happen.â€
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"Further to my earlier post, a quote from a William Hill spokesperson -"
Some interesting stuff there.
I recall after the Scottish independence referendum, it was said that the late surge to stay part of the union came about through the votes of quiet people who didn't want to attract the insults of the independence-fanatics.
Mr Cameron is looking distinctly worried at the moment, and I wonder if he recognises the possibility that the referendum will be swayed by a host of very reasonable people who wish to leave but have stayed quiet, not wishing to be insulted (swivel-eyed/racist/scumbag/xenophobes etc) by the shouty remain fanatics.
Last edited by: Haywain on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 13:31
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...the shouty remain fanatics.
The irony is delicious. Do you really think that?
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"Do you really think that?"
I hear the personal insults being shouted loudest by them so ........... yes.
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You seem to be mistaking yourself for one of those quiet and reasonable people.
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"You seem to be mistaking yourself for one of those quiet and reasonable people."
Did you miss the bit where Sir Bob Giveusyereffinmoney - equipped with a loud-hailer - hove into view on the ship of fools?
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>> The irony is delicious. Do you really think that?
>>
Can you explain what the irony is, please?
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Its a metally thing used to make clothes flat.
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According to a report in the Daily Express and other media recently, a document has been "leaked" that the E.U and Americans are already having meetings and have drawn up plans that will "kill-off" the NHS if we remain. I hope nobody gets ill or hurt in the future unless they are wealthy of course, still it's one way of decreasing the aging population!
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People really will believe any old s*** if it supports what they want to hear.
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Part of NHS is already privatized. Tories will turn into a paid system gradually. BUPA is provided as "perks" in many large organizations.
Private medical business is growing. People are queuing for private schools as well (most private schools have now entrance exams).
I have many GP/consultant friends who discuss this openly.
This is not really a secret.
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Exactly, >>. BUPA is provided as "perks" in many large organizations.
But to ordinary folk it's a necessity, and not one they can afford to lose!
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>> But to ordinary folk it's a necessity, and not one they can afford to lose!
Since when politicians and big corporations thought for "ordinary folks"? All it matters to them is power and money.
The more ordinary folks struggle to make ends meet the less likely that they will rise for a revolt and challenge status quo.
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Yep! - and that's one reason tomorrow is happening.
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"People really will believe any old s*** if it supports what they want to hear."
Are you talking about the stayers or goers? Or both?
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>> According to a report in the Daily Express and other media recently, a document has
>> been "leaked" that the E.U and Americans are already having meetings and have drawn up
>> plans that will "kill-off" the NHS if we remain. I hope nobody gets ill or
>> hurt in the future unless they are wealthy of course, still it's one way of
>> decreasing the aging population!
>> You mean like Brown in 2010 and Miliband in 2015 warning the NHS would be privatised by teh Tories if the Tories won.
(And Corbyn is still at it),
There's a word for people who repeat a losing strategy: stupid. (or Supporters of the English football team:-)
Last edited by: madf on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 12:01
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All the talk of this or that happening with specific costs / taxes etc is specious really. There will be some turmoil post a leave vote, but it will settle down - chances are if it's out, unless it's really clear, HMG will obfuscate for a few years then have another go anyway to get the 'right' answer.
Closer integration in the Euro zone is a certainty, that's the treaty they've signed up to. If we remain, they will go for closer Union, leaving us an also ran in the 'burbs; neither one thing nor the other. To my mind the vote comes down to:
Do you want to be fully integrated, in the Euro, and run by Brussels? If so, vote in.
If not, vote out.
There is no chance that UK will influence what is happening on the continent significantly.
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I haven't prayed for 50yrs - but I'll say one tonight that all the (S)Inners have a dream of the future, and convert! :-)
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>> I haven't prayed for 50yrs - but I'll say one tonight that all the (S)Inners
>> have a dream of the future, and convert! :-)
>>
Your dream is one of the past, devonite. And we don't want it.
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Absolute rubbish. How many times to people have to be reminded we are excluded from ever closer union? We are already part of a two-or-more speed Europe, with our various opt outs and vetos e.g. Schengen and the Euro. The central EU is getting the message from all sides - further integration is not really popular in the major EU states. It won't happen.
Again, not what Leavers want to hear. But please take it on board and stop spreading disinformation.
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You take your opinion; I'll take mine. They're both opinions, both valid :-)
I didn't say UK was committed to closer union, just pointed out that that is the whole point of the 'project' - and if you don't want to be left in no-man's land then you need to be prepared to commit to getting fully on board, or right out to stand alone. Are you?
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I can't answer your question because your proposal is fallacious. There is no no-man's-land, we are already in with special status. To our benefit, not detriment. These are not matters of opinion, you are presenting fallacious information.
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There have posts here claiming remaining in EU is quantifiable, known.
But yet none of the remain supporters managed to answer the question "after what level of immigration you will say, well enough now".
Everyone has dodged this question somehow. I guess because the answer is "infinity".
Then now come you say EU is know, quantifiable?
If being in an open market is better for economy, then why restrict it with EU, just allow anyone from any country to enter?
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I have just received "The Facts" on the Referendum. It starts: "We send the EU £350 million a week.."
That is NOT a Fact : it is a proven indisputable lie..
People who start with a lie are not the people I want to vote for...
Last edited by: madf on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 12:54
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(1) What is the correct number then?
(2) Why calculating the correct number is so difficult?
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>> (1) What is the correct number then?
350 minus what we get back in rebate, minus the benefits to our economy (GDP) from free trade with our partners, minus EU money invested in development projects etc.
>> (2) Why calculating the correct number is so difficult?
See above.
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fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
The £350m/week did come from official document.
As per this calculation, UK is £8.5 billion out of pocket.
If income less than expenses, in my book it is considered as "loss".
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Someone else try, I've had enough.
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There's none so deaf.............
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>> The £350m/week did come from official document.
£350m is our gross contribution; subscription if you like. In practice we get a discount on that in the form of the rebate Thatcher negotiated. That money never leaves these shores. We also get quite lot back in EU funding such as grants to farmers, regional fund assistance (eg bridges or ferries in remoter parts of UK) etc.
Surelyy it's not difficult to understand that on that basis we never get £350m to do as we like with?
While we are, as might be expected for a richer member, a net contributor the real figure is perhaps £120million. While that sounds a lot it's some tiny fraction of Govt spend. It would only need a small drop in Govt income during the post Brexit downturn predicted by every reputable economist to swallow any real gain from stopping our subs several times over.
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The document says "we send the EU £350 million a week". On the FRONT page.
We don't "send " anything like that.
We never have.
It IS LIES.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 14:46
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>> But yet none of the remain supporters managed to answer the question "after what level
>> of immigration you will say, well enough now".
>>
>> Everyone has dodged this question somehow. I guess because the answer is "infinity".
Rubbish. The answer is, and always has been: "When (if) it is no longer economically beneficial". At the moment, it is beneficial. So there is no "problem".
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Mr A's economical benefit definition can be different from Mr B's.
Economical benefit to whom? Corporates, politicans, ordinary folks?
How come suppressing opposing views by addressing with the word "rubbish" is not a sign of intolerance an hatred?
Let's admit, if you can't quantify something with measurable numbers, then you don't really have a clue (in scientific world it has been the rule for hundreds of years).
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>> Economical benefit to whom? Corporates, politicans, ordinary folks?
Net economic benefit to national GDP.
>> How come suppressing opposing views by addressing with the word "rubbish" is not a sign
>> of intolerance an hatred?
Because it isn't. It's a pretty innocuous word.
>> Let's admit, if you can't quantify something with measurable numbers, then you don't really have
>> a clue (in scientific world it has been the rule for hundreds of years).
See above, GDP.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
How it is linked with being in EU? 7 out of top 10 GDP countries are not in EU.
Where is the proof that UK GDP will go down being outside in the EU?
In fact, it proves that UK will thrive well being 5th in the list.
Still it doesn't answer the question at what number immigration will be considered enough (that should be number of people entering and how you can even reduce the number while in EU).
Is high overall GDP but lower GDP per capita preferable?
China and India have very high GDP values but living condition is much worse there.
Last edited by: movilogo on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 13:26
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No, movi. you have the wrong end of the stick.
Migration in to the UK is currently a net benefit to UK GDP. That's the point being made here, in answer to your question of "when will enough be enough".
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SQ for Zero's relative
>> Where is the proof that UK GDP will go down being outside in the EU?
SImples.
We are going to make exporting to our biggest export market much more difficult.
That is really clever.
So Exports to the EU will likely fall .
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 19:07
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Just curious if anyone has been stopped and asked for their opinion for any poll? With it being close to call (apparently), who do they ask? I've not been asked. Although if I was I might mischievously say out (I'll vote in) to skew the figures and get some of the worried non-voters to go out and vote tomorrow for IN :-)
And just an observation.... to me movilogo's posts read like some of fluffy's. Not really analysed sentences/grammar, etc.
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>> Just curious if anyone has been stopped and asked for their opinion for any poll?
>> With it being close to call (apparently), who do they ask? I've not been asked.
>> Although if I was I might mischievously say out (I'll vote in) to skew the
>> figures and get some of the worried non-voters to go out and vote tomorrow for
>> IN :-)
>>
>>>>
Or do the opposite. There are a fair proportion of people who will go with the winning side - the Manchester United effect.
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The Ambos have not been stopped but the die was in any case already cast for them.
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So – the biggest decision of recent years is to be taken tomorrow.
The campaign for Remain has focussed its arguments pretty much on the alleged economic and other disasters awaiting us if we choose to leave.
It has published totally spurious and unprovable figures on how it sees each family's personal wealth being adversely affected. It has appealed to the selfish instincts of the British people more than any other factor – “What's in it or me?â€
That is, of course, until this last seven days, when it has harnessed people's natural sympathies to for a murdered Remain campaigner to argue that we should vote Remain “as she would have wanted us toâ€. Despite vigorous denials from Leave supporters that has been self evident.
The public loves a sympathy splurge - just remember the “Diana effect†and how it has spilt over into everyday public emotions.
The Leave campaign has been more focussed on the, dare I say it, somewhat more philosophical arguments.
What sort of a country do we want to pass on to our children and grandchildren?
Do we want to be independently trading with the world on our own terms, do we want to control the immigration into the country, do we want an EU army, do we want to be a net contributor to a political block where our ineffectual voice is one among many, or in other words do we want to be in charge of our own destiny?
Traditionally, Britain has taken the brave route not the cowardly one and for all these reasons and others, I shall be voting Leave tomorrow.
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No fool like an old fool.
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>>No fool like an old fool.
No fool like an old, bitter, resentful and bigoted fool who lost his a*** in the Spanish housing market..
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Omigod, are you bringing up the subject of the murder AGAIN?
Are there no depths?
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and the biggest insult to have surfaced today, is
>>>And just an observation.... to me movilogo's posts read like some of fluffy's. Not really analysed sentences/grammar, etc. <<<
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It was an observation - to me the wording of some of the posts have been similar. I wonder if they come from the same area for example.
Who was the insult against? Movilogo or Fluffy or both? No insult was intended I was just saying some of the posts came across as being written by the same person. Which they aren't. Are they?
Movilogo is an original member here. Came over from the other site right at the beginning.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 17:36
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Pretty sure Movi is not Fluffy. Movi (no slight intended, just an observation) makes the mistakes in English characteristic of a non-native speaker. Fluffy's English is generally correct - but seldom rises above primary school complexity.
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I'll be voting for Roger to leave tomorrow. In fact, why wait?
The country I'll be passing on to my children thankfully won't have him in it for long, although the lingering poison of the ideas he endorses (I don't think there's an original thought in his head) will take longer to remove. It's no longer 1950, the map is no longer pink and the methods that made it that way are no longer valid. Instead we have found a way to work peacefully and profitably with other countries, and to agree on a set of social values - heavily influenced by the culture of the UK - that make the whole of Europe a better place to live, work, trade and play. What kind of bigoted fool do you have to be to turn your back on that?
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Calm down, Will, and have a go at the in/out quiz on 38deg. I was 72% out; I was surprised to discover that my wife was 74% out.
tinyurl.com/jqdg2e9
Last edited by: Haywain on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 17:42
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Bacon for breakfast, was it Will?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 17:49
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"Bacon for breakfast, was it?"
Close - lunch!
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Its an in-joke, you had to be there. And it was breakfast.
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I had a continental croque monsieur, made with English ham and French cheese. Very stimulating it was too.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Wed 22 Jun 16 at 17:58
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EU IN/OUT Referendum Thursday 23/06/16 - Vol 23 - Robin O'Reliant
