***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 7 *****
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Continuing discussion.
n.b. some of volume 5 has been merged into this thread, hence the subject headers saying vol 5.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 28 Jan 16 at 01:14
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And ... there's more: www.thelocal.ch/20160107/zurich-assaults-on-women-compared-to-cologne
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 10 Jan 16 at 19:04
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>> And ... there's more: www.thelocal.ch/20160107/zurich-assaults-on-women-compared-to-cologne
Ah yes, Switzerland - that place outside the EU, the place that has border controls and restricted immigration.
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What's your answer to the migrant problem then?
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 09:00
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The Kissinger interview on TV this morning gave his view on ISIS, deal with them the same way as the Nazis were delt with, wipe them out.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 09:04
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Well that strategy failed didn't it? The USA borrowed some of the brighter Nazis, and let many others off….
Nonetheless, ISIS seems to be hell-bent on colonialisation, emulating the good old Ottoman empire, not to mention the earlier Delhi sultanate, and the Mogul Empire, for which some sects have a nostalgic longing.
From "Indian Gateway" "The general policy of most of the rulers during the 700 years of Muslim occupation of India was to systematically replace the fabric of Hindu society and culture with a Muslim culture. They tried to destroy Indian religions language, places of knowledge (universities e.g Nalanda were totally destroyed by Muslims). They destroyed and desecrated places of thousands of temples including Somnath, Mathura, Benaras, Ayodhaya, Kannauj, Thaneswar and in other places. There was wholesale slaughter of the monks and priests and innocent Hindus with the aim to wipe out the intellectual bedrock of the people they overran".
Of course, this source might be biased in some way, written largely by Hindus, but it's not a western european bias.
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All four European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member states – Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland – have signed the Schengen Agreement, even though they are outside the EU]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
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I have travelled in Norway and Switzerland without border passport checks. The UK is a different matter, especially if you are a British citizen.
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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12087780/Cologne-assault-Cultural-difference-is-no-excuse-for-rape.html
A fairly long article in the Telegraph: I dare say the usual suspects will howl "racist" at the author, who is female. She seems, to me,to make some valid points.
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Of course it's ruddy click bait, that's the whole point of her, and the Daily Mail's, existence. Seems the Telegraph is aping the model.
The penny finally drops.
Don't click it, and it will stop. Not holding my breath.
Last edited by: Alanović on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 13:20
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"The penny finally drops."
Yep - it has finally dropped for Mutti.
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Having read both of those articles slowly and carefully, there really isn't that much difference between them apart from the unpleasant rhetoric in the Mail one.
Where is the truth in all this? The German police undoubtedly tried to play down the events, and now we are in danger of misdiagnosing the problem.
I don't like the presumptions either that all is well, or that that this is all an inevitable consequence of letting immigrants in.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 15:12
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Well, its not particularly racist, but its not very good.
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I see that Cologne's police chief has been sacked or suspended because of the attacks. (Sky News)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 16:04
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12087780/Cologne-assault-Cultural-difference-is-no-excuse-for-rape.html
>>
>> A fairly long article in the Telegraph: I dare say the usual suspects will howl
>> "racist" at the author, who is female. She seems, to me,to make some valid points.
That Telegraph article entirely echoes my own views. Absolutely on the nail.
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So why aren't these 1000 fit and violent young men back in their own country fighting IS?
(I was going to say and protecting their women and children, but perhaps not).
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>> So why aren't these 1000 fit and violent young men back in their own country
>> fighting IS?
>>
>> (I was going to say and protecting their women and children, but perhaps not).
>>
I've probably missed something, but which 1000 men?
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According to news reports that was the number involved in the assaults and robberies that took place.
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>> According to news reports that was the number involved in the assaults and robberies that
>> took place.
>>
Righto, probably all manner of reasons, they may not even be from Syria or Iraq being the most obvious reason.
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>> So why aren't these 1000 fit and violent young men back in their own country
>> fighting IS?
Even if one accepts that all are recent refugee/migrants many are not from the Levant and are fleeing from threats other than IS. In practise they're likely to be a mix of thugs and thieves and probably not all that fit.
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"In practise they're likely to be a mix of thugs and thieves and probably not all that fit."
The penny HAS dropped!
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>> >>
>> Even if one accepts that all are recent refugee/migrants many are not from the Levant
>> and are fleeing from threats other than IS. In practise they're likely to be a
>> mix of thugs and thieves and probably not all that fit.
>>
Thieves and thugs sound just about ideal in the battle against IS and no one is all that fit till they've had a bit of training.
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>> That Telegraph article entirely echoes my own views. Absolutely on the nail.
While some of what she says is valid commentary it's badly undermined by her stereotyping of Muslim men.
The common theme in witness accounts, apart from what I'll paraphrase as 'olive skinned appearance', is drunkenness. Doesn't compute with devout Islamic chaps does it does it?
The blokes were a bunch of organised thugs whose MO was groping etc to facilitate theft, occasionally augmented by more serious sexual assault. They need to be identified, caught and tried for their crimes.
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Doesn't compute with devout Islamic chaps does it does it?
>>
You'd be surprised how many people claim to a good muslim and enjoy the ehhm 'vices' of the west. Change at the drop of a hat. Despite working out there lots, I'm not sure I've got my head around it.
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>> The blokes were a bunch of organised thugs whose MO was groping etc to facilitate
>> theft, occasionally augmented by more serious sexual assault. They need to be identified, caught and
>> tried for their crimes.
Agreed.
And while they are doing that, they should be a bit more careful about who they let in, instead of putting the party on Facebook.
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We have already had similar problems here. They were supposed to be disciplined soldiers.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/15/two-libyan-soldiers-jailed-for-raping-man-in-cambridge
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 20:17
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>> We have already had similar problems here. They were supposed to be disciplined soldiers.
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/15/two-libyan-soldiers-jailed-for-raping-man-in-cambridge
Over here being trained. Took the pongos example a bit too literally.....?
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>> Over here being trained. Took the pongos example a bit too literally.....?
>>
Their example of what?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Jan 16 at 17:31
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>> Their example of what?
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Don't forget that Bromp is a Corbyn admiring military hater. :-)
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>> Don't forget that Bromp is a Corbyn admiring military hater. :-)
I dread to think what training course he thinks they were on.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Jan 16 at 17:31
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>> I dread to think what training course he thinks they were on.
>
I'm simply recording that bullying, mysogony and rape of both males and females, while not SOP, are far from unknown in the British Army.
Deepcut and today's stuff about punishment marches are examples that come easily to mind.
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>> I'm simply recording that bullying, mysogony and rape of both males and females, while not
>> SOP, are far from unknown in the British Army.
>>
The military reflect society, yes there are bullies, drug takers, and criminals, but they are a tiny proportion of the total. Don't tar everyone with your prejudices.
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>> The military reflect society, yes there are bullies, drug takers, and criminals, but they are
>> a tiny proportion of the total. Don't tar everyone with your prejudices.
>>
...oh, the irony.......
:-(
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>> Deepcut and today's stuff about punishment marches are examples that come easily to mind.
I thought sweeping generalisations were verboten ?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 9 Jan 16 at 17:31
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"Took the pongos example a bit too literally.....?"
Now you are looking for excuses for male rape - sometimes, Brompt, you can be really disgusting.
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>> Now you are looking for excuses for male rape - sometimes, Brompt, you can be
>> really disgusting.
What makes you think I'm looking for excuses? Any rape is beyond the pale.
I'm just suggesting that leaps to judgement about foreigners might involve a dose of hypocrisy about conduct of our own chaps.
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>> The common theme in witness accounts, apart from what I'll paraphrase as 'olive skinned appearance',
>> is drunkenness. Doesn't compute with devout Islamic chaps does it does it?
The last time I went to a Muslim country (Oman) the Western hotel bars (the only place you can get alcohol) were absolutely rammed full of 'devout Muslim chaps'.
Hypocrisy and religion go together... but you know that of course...er, don't you?
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>> is drunkenness. Doesn't compute with devout Islamic chaps does it does it?
... and why should it?
It would hardly be surprising if those that are arrogant, unpleasant, criminal etc...would also be hypocrites who bend the rules to suit themselves, would it?
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Nothing new then...I remember very well that in my late teens, living in Bradford, I went to two curry houses at least three times a week. The owners, Pakistanis ( or Bangladeshis) would join us and drink themselves senseless on cans of Colt 45 lager stuff. Then get really obnoxious. I always assumed that their religion forebade them to drink alcohol, but they were just 'one of the boys'. The disgusting pornography they showed us finally drove us away, which says a lot given our age.
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>> While some of what she says is valid commentary it's badly undermined by her stereotyping
>> of Muslim men.
I think it's you that's stuck with this theme of 'all Muslims'.
Whenever anyone criticises a Muslim, you see it as criticism of all of them.
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I think I'm missing something. I have not read the Mail article but I have read the Telegraph article.
As I said, I don't think its very good, but its not really racist, other than one comment at the end about Sharia law, it doesn't refer to religion one way or the other, and most fo what it says, whilst silly, is even-handedly silly.
Its light on facts, but such as are mentioned would appear to be accurate or at last as known at this point.
So I don't know where you think "her stereotyping of Muslim men" was. And I have quite no idea where "olive skinned appearance".
There is quite enough racism in this world, and combatting it is a fight. Starting to fantasise it and make it up where it is quite obviously inappropriate just makes the fight harder.
Criminals need prosecution, and for that they need finding. It is as appropriate to say "of North African appearance" as it is to say short, tall, fat, smart or wears sad shoes - assuming it is accurate of course.
It only becomes racist when you say things like "People of North African appearance are probably Islamic rapists".
And your comment about "the pongo's example" is simply crass.
So on behalf of all rabid anti-racists, of which I am one, please join the other side because you're damaging ours.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 8 Jan 16 at 23:20
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Mark,
The paraphrase 'olive skinned' is my own.
I'd missed the reference to Sharia which you saw as racist My stereotype issue is with the paragraph beginning with 'being doctrinally commanded to cover up women' and (the key bit) leading to the conclusion that this requires the the 'temptress can be humiliated and terrorised'.
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Seeing Brompt and NoFM arguing over terminology and misunderstanding - is like watching a clip from 'The Life of Brian'.
Great stuff, lads, great stuff!
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>>Seeing Brompt and NoFM arguing over terminology and misunderstanding - is like watching a clip from 'The Life of Brian'.
Think yaself lucky you're not married to either of 'em.
:o}
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>> Seeing Brompt and NoFM arguing over terminology
Is *that* what you take from it?
Oh dear, we really are going to have to lower the bar somewhat if we want you to keep up, aren't we.
and misunderstanding - is like watching a clip
>> from 'The Life of Brian'.
>>
>> Great stuff, lads, great stuff!
>>
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>> My stereotype issue is
>> with the paragraph beginning with 'being doctrinally commanded to cover up women' and (the key
>> bit) leading to the conclusion that this requires the the 'temptress can be humiliated and
>> terrorised'.
O.k. Let's try this another way.
In the 'world of Bromptonaut' and in fairness, you are not alone... how would someone like me discuss those who are 'doctrinally commanded to cover up women' and who would indulge in 'temptresses can be humiliated and terrorised'.
Now, these people do exist, I'd like to think that you'd agree that (maybe you don't, maybe that's the problem) so how does someone like me discuss them, without offending someone like you?
I think part of the problem is that when someone like me discusses this, you jump to the zone where I'm talking about all Muslims...when I'm not... I'm talking about the backward, misogynistic, unpleasant, arrogant ones who think that they can continue to try to establish their warped way of thinking in places like here (UK, Europe), which is biting the hand that feeds them, when you consider where they've come from.
For the record, I think there are 'backward,misogynistic,unpleasant, arrogant ones' in every society...and worse... it's just that at the moment Islam is in the spotlight, because their's are on a mission.
Last edited by: Westpig on Sat 9 Jan 16 at 10:11
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As above. You do talk sense WP.
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>> I'm talking about
>> the backward, misogynistic, unpleasant, arrogant ones who think that they can continue to try to
>> establish their warped way of thinking in places like here (UK, Europe)
About which the majority of British Muslims, who do not fit into those categories, should be even more concerned than the rest of us; so it's in nobody's interest, other than that of the people who are trying to impose their own twisted fundamentalism, to tip-toe around the discussion.
In fact there's even a piece in the Grauniad to the effect that sweeping the migrant-related aspects of the events in Germany will play into the hands of racists.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve
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"In fact there's even a piece in the Grauniad to the effect that sweeping the migrant-related aspects of the events in Germany will play into the hands of racists."
A glimpse of the blindingly obvious, and something that the Realists pointed out long ago.
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>> In the 'world of Bromptonaut' and in fairness, you are not alone... how would someone
>> like me discuss those who are 'doctrinally commanded to cover up women' and who would
>> indulge in 'temptresses can be humiliated and terrorised'.
Still waiting for a response.
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>> Still waiting for a response.
>>
Do I detect some sense of entitlement there ;-P
Seriously, I started on something yesterday but life outside intervened. Given I'm working all day tomorrow it may be a little longer......
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>> In the 'world of Bromptonaut' and in fairness, you are not alone... how would someone
>> like me discuss those who are 'doctrinally commanded to cover up women' and who would
>> indulge in 'temptresses can be humiliated and terrorised'.
I've been wrestling with how best to respond to this and drafted a couple of rather lengthy replies. But actually it's simple. This is a discussion forum. One of us says something and others agree or disagree. That's why we're here.
While I seem to have the ability to mortally offend some incumbents (Mapmaker 'cos I said he was recycling stuff used to support Ian Smith's regime in Rhodesia; Haywain 'cos a flip remark about 'Pongos' training foreign soldiers apparently justified male rape) I'm utterly relaxed about being challenged.
I took your comment re NYE in Cologne Oh dear Mutti, what have you done? Angela Merkel's decisions on letting migrants in en masse have caused more strife, not less and will come to haunt her...badly as a sweeping generalisation. I stick by that even if all thousand of the crims there came over the border on 30 December on forged passports.
If you want to discuss how to deal with the backward, mysogonisitic unpleasant and arrogant ones feel free. I'll probably disagree since you're likely to be in the 'come down hard and show 'em who is boss' camp whereas I'd favour discussion and education to isolate the real minority. But this is a discussion forum where we discuss stuff..
It's not as if you're in a minority here.
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>> I'll probably disagree since you're likely to be in the 'come down hard and show 'em who is boss' camp whereas I'd favour discussion and education to isolate the real minority. But this is a discussion forum where we discuss stuff..
>>
If you think you have a Snowball in Hells chance of educating those folk good luck to you matey. You're living in a dream world. You are part of the problem.
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>> You are part of the problem.
>
Whatever.
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>> I've been wrestling with how best to respond to this and drafted a couple of
>> rather lengthy replies. But actually it's simple. This is a discussion forum. One of us
>> says something and others agree or disagree. That's why we're here.
That's true... it's just that in some areas up for discussion, I've felt there's a distinct degree of disapproval... and on occasions there's been more than that... the odd hint of racism... purely because I raise a subject that concerns/annoys me (and it is my belief, many other people).
I don't like being accused of a 'whiff' of this or a 'hint' of that... and have long felt it's a device designed to shut me (and people like me) up, so that the other opinion can remain unopposed.
Now, I could of course just pipe down and back off.. but that's not my style.
>> I took your comment re NYE in Cologne Oh dear Mutti, what have you done?
>> Angela Merkel's decisions on letting migrants in en masse have caused more strife, not less
>> and will come to haunt her...badly as a sweeping generalisation. I stick by that even
>> if all thousand of the crims there came over the border on 30 December on
>> forged passports.
It may well be a sweeping generalisation... however, it's a fairly accurate one... and it matters not if someone popped over the border a month ago or 2 years ago, if they are backward thinking, misogynistic, etc there's going to be problems... big ones at that.... and the places these migrants are presently coming from are a hotbed for that sort of thinking.
I know I've said this before, but Idi Amin's rejects didn't abuse the privileges offered them, did they?
Lastly, I truly cannot fathom why the 'left' who are so hot (rightly) on female equality and homophobia, etc ... are truly silent when it comes to Islam and its faults. Why are women and gay people suddenly second best?
Last edited by: Westpig on Sun 10 Jan 16 at 22:31
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Thanks for that which deserves a considered reply.
Due work etc. it may be Tuesday before I can do so.
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"I don't like being accused of a 'whiff' of this or a 'hint' of that..."
I wouldn't worry too much about that, WP. A couple of weeks ago, I asked one of our most avid racist-sniffers twice for his definition of 'racism/racist' - and there has been no answer.
Meanwhile, sadly, the Realists seem to have predicted things about right.
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>> That's true... it's just that in some areas up for discussion, I've felt there's a
>> distinct degree of disapproval...
On occasions, though never offended, I may well disapprove. That's life. If I think there's a whiff or hint of racism I'll say so. For doing that I collect plenty scowlies and get labelled 'a racist sniffer'. While not quite adopting the Arkell v Pressdram line, frankly anyone who feels such accusations are intended to silence them needs to MTFU!!
>> Now, I could of course just pipe down and back off.. but that's not my
>> style.
Indeed, so what's the problem?
>> It may well be a sweeping generalisation... however, it's a fairly accurate one...
Whatever happened in Cologne (and the facts are still emerging) wasn't a spontaneous eruption of religious fervour by backward thinking mysogonists. Those people were recruited and organised by criminal gangs. While the controlling minds were almost certainly just villains there's a certain irony in theory that rightist thugs get both a cut on the nicked stiff AND a political boost.
>>
>> I know I've said this before, but Idi Amin's rejects didn't abuse the privileges offered
>> them, did they?
Some of them did - white collar crime for most part. And just being 'Ugandan Asians' didn't exactly unite, for example, the Catholic Goans and the Jains in a common cause either.
>> Lastly, I truly cannot fathom why the 'left' who are so hot (rightly) on female
>> equality and homophobia, etc ... are truly silent when it comes to Islam and its
>> faults. Why are women and gay people suddenly second best?
Real politics, as opposed to the binary Punch and Judy variety, involves negotiating some difficult conflicts but to portray 'the left', whatever it is, as silent is a bit silly.
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>> Whatever happened in Cologne (and the facts are still emerging) wasn't a spontaneous eruption of
>> religious fervour by backward thinking mysogonists.
No, it's large groups of men who although guests in that country, wish it (their host country) to comply with their culture (if you can call it that), rather than the other way around.
Call it what you like, whether it's their b astardised version of their religion or their so called culture...... they wish to inflict it on the rest of us.... and for whatever reasons, there's quite a few who think like that.
>> Those people were recruited and organised by criminal gangs.
I don't believe that..they are the crooks. The decent folk who are also migrants wouldn't be involved, would they?
>> but to portray 'the left', whatever it is, as silent is a bit silly.
There's nothing silly in my post. I see the Left's willingness to ignore gross sexism (and worse) and homophobia and animal welfare whenever Islam is involved, as somewhat strange, I truly cannot work it out. Prove me wrong.
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WP,
I suspect part of our mutual incomprehension here is differing sources of news.
My reading of Cologne is that for the most part jostling/groping etc was about facilitating the usual acquisitive crime stuff - nicking credit cards, phones etc. Putting 1,000 people on the ground to do that on one night is a serious piece of organisation - having struggled to get 200 conference delegates on same time/place/hymn sheet I can understand the challenge.... .
I'll bet an ex police inspector can see that irony too!!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 11 Jan 16 at 22:55
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This was, apparently, a bunch of people that were currently guests in a country while the country worked out how it was going to incorporate them legally.
These "guests" didn't care about the laws of their host country, the customs and behaviour of the residents of their host country, nor about the rights of their victims (kind of ironic).
Why is it more complicated, more difficult or more controversial then just booting them right back to where they came from? And their lives will be in danger? Well, that didn't bother them so why should it bother their hosts.
And you know the worst thing about these scummy scumbags? Some racist t*** is going to stand up and point to their behaviour as justification for his (or her) puerile beliefs. And its going to be b***** hard to argue with.
Literally kick them out. Kick anybody out who shelters them, kick anybody out involved in their activities. Kick every last one out. And if they suffer back in their own country, then they should just have thought it through. They are not upset about their own behaviour, they just didn't think they were going to get punished.
Then make it damn clear that people are welcome for as long as they follow the rules. Because if the "good" people don't enforce that approach, the scumbags will stop everybody coming; even the ones who really need to.
But you need a carrot, as well as a stick. So every poor soul suffering who is just looking for help and somewhere safe to be should get that help and that place. Even if it does cost us to provide it.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Jan 16 at 23:18
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Some reasonable analysis here, in another Grauniad article
goo.gl/5pbbta
but true to form we have this...
"Sixth, it is beyond doubt that there are people living in Europe now who have been brought up in a culture where a woman would be publicly and viciously punished for allowing herself to be the victim of a sexual assault. It is utterly unrealistic to expect all those brought up in fundamentalist religious cultures – conservative Islam being the largest, but by no means the only such culture – to be able suddenly and completely to ditch all aspects of the pervasive environment they were brought up in."
To imply that culture or religion excuses sexual assault is naive in the extreme. Nor does it cause it. Ordinary people, Muslim or non-Muslim, do not behave like this. They knew full well that what they were doing would be unacceptable, they just didn't think there would be any consequences worth worrying about. And they were nearly right. Import criminals and you will get more crime, and an open door policy is the best way to do it.
Germany is almost certainly not taking in a balanced group of migrants:
www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/refdaily?pass=52fc6fbd5&date=2016-01-07&cat=Europe
According to official statistics, two thirds of all migrants registering in Greece and Italy last year were male. A fifth of all those who reached the EU last year were under the age of 18; half had travelled alone. Of those, more than 90 per cent were boys.
The place to sort the sheep from the goats was at the point of origin/entry to the EU. It was obvious what an open door policy would result in, and having now got an unknown number of undesirables in Germany they will be unable to get rid of them.
Too late, unwordly politicians are catching on. Sweden, another country with an open door policy and potentially an even bigger problem, has now put border control on the Oresund bridge and Denmark has responded with controls at its border with Germany.
How much better it would have been to work all this out beforehand, and better too probably for the genuine refugees who have no doubt been elbowed out of the way by the younger and fitter opportunists.
"Dr Hudson warned that the problem of too many young migrant men was particularly profound in Sweden, which has taken more migrants per head of population than any other European country — nearly four times that of Germany. She calculated that among the population aged 16 and 17 there were now 123 boys for every 100 girls. In China, where gender imbalances are blamed on the government's one-child policy, the ratio is 117 boys to every 100 girls.
She claims that 18,615 boys aged 16 and 17 entered Sweden, compared to 2,555 girls last year. Adding those figures to the existing population count in Sweden for those age groups, as reported by the international database of the US Census Bureau, she finds that there are now 121,914 boys in that age bracket, compared with 99,079 girls.
Dr Hudson cites Canada as an example of a country that has recognised the risks of an overly large young male population. Canada has committed to accepting 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of next month, but it is only accepting women, accompanied minors and families. She fears that Europe's hard-won victories for gender equality and public safety are jeopardised by an influx of disproportionately large numbers of young men.
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"How much better it would have been to work all this out beforehand,"
It wasn't difficult.
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Couple of thoughts on Manatee's post.
Firstly, I don't think Deborah Orr is suggesting that religion or culture justify sexual assault. I'm not even sure the paragraph quoted does so read in isolation. She sets a scene a part of a set of sequentially numbered propositions around the impact of/background to NYE events in Cologne.
It's worth quoting the others, including particularly the point that Shoulder-shrugging and victim-blaming when women are sexually molested is hardly an alien new thing that could only have reached Europe because it has been nefariously smuggled in from abroad.
Her conclusion is a plea for education and a lament at the lack of any help in that direction from religious and secular leaders in Europe or the Middle East.
On the prevalence of males amongst those arriving there may be some truth in suggestion that others are elbowed out of the way. OTOH it's males of or approaching military age who are most likely to be forcibly drafted into fighting for one side or another. Or massacred to prevent them joining - see Srebrenica and other outrages in ex Yugoslavia.
Sending young men ahead as 'scouts' is also fairly common human behaviour.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 12 Jan 16 at 17:30
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>..I'd favour discussion and education to isolate the real minority.
Meanwhile, in other news Jeremy Corbyn has announced that the next Labour Government will introduce a programme of grants to be paid to Muslim clerics in England and Wales to fund their innovative education and discussion groups.
A spokesman who did not want to be identified said that the money would come from closing loopholes in the BiK tax regulations.
"We all know that the only reason people join the armed forces is so that they can have fun with things that go 'bang' so we will be expanding the rules to cover equipment supplied as part of their employment. It is also expected that this will address the problem of gross overmanning in our security services."
Last edited by: Kevin on Mon 11 Jan 16 at 21:58
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>> I'd missed the reference to Sharia which you saw as racist
In fact i didn't see it as racist at all, i mistyped. There ahould have been a full stop after the word "racist"
To restate;
I don't think the article is very good
The article is not racist
Other than one comment about sharia law it doesn't mention religion at all.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 9 Jan 16 at 13:04
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>> I don't think the article is very good
Why do you think that?
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>> I don't think the article is very good
>Why do you think that?
Because it was just ill informed whiny/whingy such as you or I might write when we're hacked off about something, rather than some informed thoughts from a proper journalist..
It didn't inform or introduce facts or do anything really except pander for some shallow thoughts in an immature and "un-useful" way.
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>> Other than one comment about sharia law it doesn't mention religion at all.
How can you read the phrase 'doctrinally commanded' as anything other than a reference to religion?
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>> How can you read the phrase 'doctrinally commanded' as anything other than a reference to
>> religion?
>>
Definition of doctrine in English:
noun
1A belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group
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>> 1A belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or
>> other group
Confirmed by the dictionary then. Let's see if Mark's got anything to add when our time zones overlap.
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The comments section on Guardian articles are nearly always overwhelmingly left of centre in their views. Since the NYE incidents in Germany there has been a marked shift to the right on the question of immigration, and this has been across all articles on the subject and not just the one below. It is as if people are no longer afraid to give vent to their concerns about both Islam and mass immigration from Islamic countries for fear of being labelled racist.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/10/after-cologne-attacks-british-politicians-show-share-merkel-values
I now believe these events will lead to Britain's exit from the EU unless something drastically changes before the referendum, and possibly the break up of the union as it currently stands. I'll have to look up the odds on a Brexit, could be worth a decent punt.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sun 10 Jan 16 at 14:29
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Here you go
www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/uk-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=704217
7/4, I have a look every now and again at the odds. The bookies have had us staying in by quite a bit for a while now. 2/5 is pretty much nailed on in a 2 horse race. I think bookies are far better than any polling companies or newspapers opinion.
I remember at the Scottish referendum, they were paying out the day before the result. They consistantly had a NO vote (and the %) for a while as well.
I'm going 58/42 to stay in the EU.
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The Guardian comments section always seems to have a large cadre of UK and American fundamentalists intent on educating "liberals", so I don't see the shift you imagine!
Last edited by: NortonES2 on Sun 10 Jan 16 at 14:43
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>> The Guardian comments section always seems to have a large cadre of UK and American
>> fundamentalists intent on educating "liberals", so I don't see the shift you imagine!
>>
On the contrary, the vast majority are well left of centre and dissenters are routinely denounced. I've never known an almost total right wing comments section no matter what the subject.
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"I've never known an almost total right wing comments section no matter what the subject.`"
Too late, I fear, but pennies are dropping all over the place - not just around Mutti.
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Merely commenting that there are a variety of contributions made, strangely many from the USA, and disagreement is not denunciation. I'd be surprised if there was a total anything on the comments section, given the variety of takes on the world!
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>> On the contrary, the vast majority are well left of centre and dissenters are routinely
>> denounced. I've never known an almost total right wing comments section no matter what the
>> subject.
I begin to wonder if the Guardian comments section has an algorithm that detects the readers perceptions and tweaks his/her tail....
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>>>>
>> I begin to wonder if the Guardian comments section has an algorithm that detects the
>> readers perceptions and tweaks his/her tail....
>>
>>
>>
Or maybe it's readers are saying what they REALLY think?
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Where is this "Alan's Snack-bar" so heavily advertised by the Jihadist terrorists as they pull the trigger, or press the bomb-belt button?
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>> Where is this "Alan's Snack-bar" so heavily advertised by the Jihadist terrorists as they pull
>> the trigger, or press the bomb-belt button?
ROFLOL
With appropriate apologies for any disrespect to my Muslim friends...
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So they knew 20 years ago to paint them red just in case!
Even if they had been painted red recently, if you owned dozens or even hundreds of homes and sent someone to paint all the doors and windows... would you give them dozens of colours to use or buy job lot and paint them all the same.
I bet the houses have magnolia walls and the same carpets throughout too.
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>> So they knew 20 years ago to paint them red just in case!
>>
>> Even if they had been painted red recently, if you owned dozens or even hundreds
>> of homes and sent someone to paint all the doors and windows...
That wasn't the point wasit?
Problem was that 60% of these difficult to let houses used to house asylum seekers had red doors. Local trouble makers knew that and used the fact to make trouble for the residents. Other reports suggest Jomast and G4 were at best tardy in responding to residents concerns - to extent in one report that door a resident repainted was returned to original red.
Amused by statement in Speccy article the Does Umunna really think that asylum-seekers should be housed in grand terraces in Chelsea at public expense – funded by taxpayers who in many cases are struggling to afford a decent home themselves?
Umunna himself surely thinks not. OTOH those reliant on the Daily MAil/Express as gospel for their news might quite reasonably believe such a thing!!
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>> That wasn't the point wasit?
So, let's get this straight.
A housing association or something similar owns a load of properties in no doubt a run down area.
60% of them have red doors and it's been like that for over 20 years as a sort of corporate colour?
Migrants have been housed in them and have complained about the red doors as it makes them 'red door dwellers' and highlights to other people they are migrants... so they want them painted a different colour.
- What about the non migrant people living behind red doors, there must be some of them.
- What about the previous occupants of those flats over the past 20 years, did they moan about red doors and being labelled poor or whatever?
- If the company asks for the doors to all be painted blue will 'blue door dwellers' then become a problem?
What a crock of ****. It's not unreasonable for a company to paint their doors all the same colour or are they now obliged to have them multi coloured or corporate white.
Then what happens if they get a deal on a specific looking window... would that be a no-no?
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The Daily Mail and its readers clamour for brutal and punitive action against the nasty evil immigrants. They campaign to such a fever pitch that know-nothings like UKIP start getting to the headlines.
The normal but hard of living bigots cannot believe that such people are allowed in to destroy the fabric of the empire and campaign for them to be nailed to crosses and left to drown in various oceans or die in various war zones.
Shortly after, the Daily Mail reports to its readers (well, picture lookers) that immigrants are being forced to live behind red doors.
Instantly the readership [lookership?] is up in arms at such outrage and various minor officials and politicians are apologising and falling on their swords until the lemmings find something else to occupy their shared brain cell.
F*%$"£$%^ idiots from one end to the other.
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> Instantly the readership [lookership?] is up in arms at such outrage and various minor officials
>> and politicians are apologising and falling on their swords until the lemmings find something else
>> to occupy their shared brain cell.
>>
>> F*%$"£$%^ idiots from one end to the other.
Pompous pratt.
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QED.
And a fine example at that.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 27 Jan 16 at 19:03
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At least I didn't hide behind a scowly face. :-)
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No, I truly wonder who that t*** is. I think its only one or two.
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"No, I truly wonder who that t*** is. I think its only one or two."
Sorry to disappoint you - but it isn't me.
By the way, I'm still waiting for your definition of racist/racism, old boy.
;-)
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>> Sorry to disappoint you - but it isn't me.
Not sure why you think that would disappoint me. As it happens I didn't think it was you.
>> By the way, I'm still waiting for your definition of racist/racism, old boy.
Look it up yourself, why would you think I would do it for you?
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>> >> By the way, I'm still waiting for your definition of racist/racism, old boy.
>>
>> Look it up yourself, why would you think I would do it for you?
Thank you. When you spoke gnomically of 'racist sniffers' the other week I wondered if you were after me.
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12 thumbs up already, i never thought we had so many Daily Wail lookers.
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>12 thumbs up already
If you consider the ones I typically argue with. Those who I don't really have a good word to say for, and who have a similarly low opinion of me.
I'd reasonably bet its usually not them who do it. They at least will stand behind what they say. It'll be done by those who dwell under rocks sniping in a whin-y "me too" sort of way without the courage to stand up for their own beliefs, whatever those may be, just looking for shoulders to hide behind.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 27 Jan 16 at 19:42
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>> 12 thumbs up already, i never thought we had so many Daily Wail lookers.
>>
That's just my fan club.
Pathetically small eh. :-)
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>> >> 12 thumbs up already, i never thought we had so many Daily Wail lookers.
>> >>
>>
>> That's just my fan club.
>>
>> Pathetically small eh. :-)
>>
Don't feel bad, there's plenty of time yet.
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>>F*%$"£$%^ idiots from one end to the other
You shouldn't talk about yourself like that.
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Bit weak for you that, Doug, you normally come back a bit stronger and a bit less "13 yr old girl" than that.
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Perhaps the thumbs and scowlies should be replaced by a list of people who clicked the "Like"button and another list for those who didn't like the post.
I'm sure no one would mind being identified in that way - and if they do they should desist and not hide behind their anonymity.
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That would be excellent.
However;
1) There is no chance of any work being done on this software
2) As soon as anonymity was lost it would stop dead. These are mostly worms, after all.
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Yes, RR. And, for context, it would be useful to know how many people (a) visit and (b) contribute to the site in a typical week. In other words, are ON's 14 petit bourgeois pitchfork wavers (better show them which end to hold first) a vocal minority or the entire pension queue?
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>>are ON's 14 petit bourgeois pitchfork wavers
I quite like that phrase, but I think I'm going to stick with "Daily Wail Lookers".
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>it would be useful to know how many people (a) visit and (b) contribute to the site
They have some statistics already within the software. I doubt they're in a sharing mood though.
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There really is no need for the childish insults so please pack it in.
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>> pension queue?
>>
Things have moved on, the government sends your taxes direct to my bank account. :-)
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Tee hee. Funnily enough, HMRC was kind enough this week to divert a chunk of it back to my account. Stopped me grumbling about the last-minute request for a tax return, I can tell you.
}:---)
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Migrant Crisis - Volume 5 - Dog
