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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 16 Jan 16 at 21:22
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Finally went out and bought a second car at the weekend, we've had a number of Golfs and it would ordinary be our default choice but we couldn't bring ourselves to buy one even though we know they're excellent cars. The reputation around the DSG had already made their resale difficult in Aus and this farrago has compounded the situation for them. I heard anecdotally (albeit from a multi-franchise dealer) that 80% of the stock offered in a recent VWA-to-dealer auction remained unsold. There are some good 'offers' from VWA at the moment but nothing that will allay fears of an unsaleable car in 3 years time. VW dealers were devoid of customers when we visited them whilst those for other marques were busy. I read that VWA doesn't want a 'fire sale' of stock but I wonder how long dealers will stand any lack of turnover.
So, we bought a Mazda 3, 3rd most popular car in Aus it seems, it's on the boat from Japan I'll report back on it when we get it. Couldn't bring myself to buy the #1 seller the ubiquitous Corolla which actually sells for more than the Golf or Mazda in Aus.
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The Mazda 3 was Australia's best-seller a couple of years ago. Shock horror because it displaced Toyota or Holden IIRC.
Toyota Corolla is habitually number 1 in the charts in ANZ of course because the rental fleets buy hundreds of 'em every month...
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>> There are some good 'offers' from VWA
>> at the moment but nothing that will allay fears of an unsaleable car in 3
>> years time.
Most people in the UK buying cars for 3 years would be using PCP (where the value is guaranteed) or lease. Indeed buyers are often "forced" to buy on PCP as there are additional discounts available - you can pay it off immeditaely if you want to.
But if you let the PCP run (or you lease) there's no residual value risk to the driver.
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>>
>> Most people in the UK buying cars for 3 years would be using PCP (where
>> the value is guaranteed) or lease.
I've a feeling it's a bit different over here, leasing is very popular but any shortfall in residual value is at the customer's risk. However if I understand correctly the estimated future residual value is set pretty conservatively and any benefit also belongs to the customer. Leases tend to be longer too - 3 to 5 years initially and can be extended up to 9 years.
I have read that salary packaging (as it's called) and leasing companies are refusing to quote on VWs at the moment due to uncertain residuals, people currently leasing VWs face a shortfall in expected residuals which will likely hit them in the pocket.
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I quite likes the Mazda 3 too, in fact I nearly bought one a phew years back, but ended up with a Lancer :(
If I was 'in the market' for a new jamjar, the Maz 3 would be at the top of my list.
VeeDubs just don't do it for me for some reason. I have ad 'em, years ago; a Golf and 2 Siroccos. Jap cars are okay OK.
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>> I've a feeling it's a bit different over here, leasing is very popular but any
>> shortfall in residual value is at the customer's risk.
What's commonly referred to a "leasing" here is actually Contract Hire (BCH or PCH depending on whether it's Business or Personal). It's just like renting a car from Hertz for 2, 3 or 4 years.
Some types of lease do have a final payment (a "balloon") which isn't fixed but they're not generally available to consumers.
PCP - Personal Contact Purchase is most common here and more like HP but with a deferred final lump payment, which is fixed. You pay that to keep the car or hand the car back and walk away. The final value is supposed to be set conservatively to leave some equity for a deposit on the next car but in practice they tend to be pretty tight.
The deferred payment means you're only paying monthly payments on something like half the car's value, so some people are snobby about it as it enables people to afford cars they couldn't buy any other way.
I'm surprised you don't see PCP - I reads somewhere it was brought into car sales by Toyota.
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>> The deferred payment [on PCP] means you're only paying monthly payments on something like half the car's
>> value,
It seems pretty smart only to pay for half the car, but you are still paying interest on the deferred payment amount for full term which isn't so smart.
The reason for the popularity isn't hard to see though - credit has always been sold on the monthly payment, not the total cost.
APRs have done very little to help consumers. In the bits of central and southern Europe where I have been involved in consumer credit among other things, the (EU Directive driven) requirement to display APR properly was largely ignored. Consumers usually want to know what the "overpayment" is for buying on credit - how much extra it will make the goods cost over a given period. It seemed to me a far more practical measure for an everyday commonsense approach, which puts the cost in terms of spending power foregone.
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>> It seems pretty smart only to pay for half the car, but you are still
>> paying interest on the deferred payment amount for full term which isn't so smart.
>>
With interest rates so low (and often subsidised on PCPs - we've got one at 0%) the interest cost of the deferred payment is pretty small.
>> APRs have done very little to help consumers. In the bits of central and southern
>> Europe where I have been involved in consumer credit among other things, the (EU Directive
>> driven) requirement to display APR properly was largely ignored.
Couple of months ago a VW salesman couldn't tell me the APR. I've looked into this and apparently the iPad based system they use doesn't tell them them the APR - they have to generate a formal proposal. The iPad was quite capable of adding £750 (yikes!) for GAP, as well as paint, alloy wheel and tyre protection. Made my excuses and left.
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>> With interest rates so low (and often subsidised on PCPs - we've got one at
>> 0%) the interest cost of the deferred payment is pretty small.
That is moot - or more correctly, sometimes it is. Inflation is also low; and those subsidised 0% rates are paid for by somebody.
Not to say there aren't cracking deals from time to time - "sales" in effect. When the bottom fell out of the market for large petrol cars a few years ago, a friend got a new high spec Mercedes ML on a 2 year deal for a fair bit less than £400 a month.
I think nevertheless that there are a lot of people who can't tell a good deal from a bad one and don't see past the monthly payment.
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>>>>So, we bought the Mazda 3,
I was speaking to neighbour who bought one recently, and is very pleased with it. His is the fastback model - a nice looking motor in my opinion.
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It is a very nice looking motor, far more so than the 6 which appears to have morphed into a bit of a flabster. Like a chav with hipsters, crop top showing a muffin roll.
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I think the 6 estate (or whatever they call it) looks better than the saloon. It's a tad smaller, too.
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In a similar vein [in my way of thinking] the new multifool stove I've recently had installed burns away like there's no tomorrow - even with all the air intakes fully closed (just as well it's been so mild down sowf)
After much research, I found out (from a chap in NZ) they 'modern' stoves are designed that way to meet CO emission levels + efficiency figures (haha!)
Having an engineering background (more haha!) um gonna doctor the thing to do what I want it to do.
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Features a test on EuroV compliance.
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More detail
VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34857404
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I suspect VW are going to end up destroying the credibility of all EU car testing..
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Maybe that's a good thing. We know the tests are not credible. Presumably if we did the same thing in a BMW we'd get higher readings as well. Are VW Group so rubbish at engines that they have to cheat and others don't?
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I've heard through two independent channels that other makers - BMW was the example given - fit about $500-worth of emission control equipment to their diesel engines, whereas VW engines somehow achieved - or appeared to achieve - the same standard without it.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Mon 23 Nov 15 at 20:00
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Not much that we didn't already know. Two things though:
- A good explanation of the mechanism by which NOx and particulates combine to cause harm, and why this is a particular danger in cities;
- A non-VW vehicle - a 2015 Opel Zafira - failed a replica Euro 6 test even from cold under precisely correct conditions. By contrast, the 2014 Passat passed its Euro 5 test from cold (defeat active) but failed the same test if started hot (not part of the test, so defeat stayed off.)
Vauxhall-Opel strongly denied that there was any defeat device in the Zafira - if it had one it can't have been very good since it failed the exact test a device ought to have helped it pass - and insisted it must have been a fault in the individual vehicle or the test. One anomaly, so not enough to draw a conclusion, unlike the VW case which is consistent with what VW has already admitted.
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" and insisted it must have been a fault in the individual vehicle or the test"
Which should have required a recall for ALL such cars to test them.
Quality ? What's that.
If cars can't be built to standard, what's the point?
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In defence of VX I imagine the crew just went and hired one, so to be fair it may have led a hard life, and any faults not attended to.
It would have been fairer if they had repeated the test on another Zafira to see if the results were the same.
Did make me smile when they said the reading was so high on the second test that it went off the chart and couldn't be measured.
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I forgot to mention what made me smile, which was the generous slice of real Kraftwerk on the soundtrack. For reasons I can't remember (but Slidey may be able to explain) the BBC can afford to use real music by real artists, whereas the independent broadcasters have to make do with ersatz soundalikes.
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In protest at VW and its shenanigans I've deleted all German names from my phone.
It's now Hans free.
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I forgot to mention what made me smile, which was the generous slice of real Kraftwerk on the soundtrack. For reasons I can't remember (but Slidey may be able to explain) the BBC can afford to use real music by real artists, whereas the independent broadcasters have to make do with ersatz soundalikes.
Nope, can't explain. But the fee for music is highly variable and I rather doubt that 'Autobahn' is that expensive being quite old now, first released 41 years ago!
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>> I forgot to mention what made me smile, which was the generous slice of real
>> Kraftwerk on the soundtrack. For reasons I can't remember (but Slidey may be able to
>> explain) the BBC can afford to use real music by real artists, whereas the independent
>> broadcasters have to make do with ersatz soundalikes.
>>
>> Nope, can't explain. But the fee for music is highly variable and I rather doubt
>> that 'Autobahn' is that expensive being quite old now, first released 41 years ago!
41 years ago? jeez that makes me feel old, I still have the album I bought 41 years ago. In hindsight - Its crap.
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The BBC have a blanket music licence for some stuff, it seems, which might explain why half their programming sends me to sleep.
More info here.
www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/production/articles/archive-rights-clearances
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A load of FL1 and FD then. Seems about right.
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20% drop in November sales compared to 2014, with overall car sales up 3.8% over the same period.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35005158
Hard to see it as anything other than the perception of tainted goods.
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>> Hard to see it as anything other than the perception of tainted goods.
>>
Maybe, but can only speak for myself..i'd be worried about re-sale value, not the quality of the product, because I think it's good.
So i'd still buy the product, no problem, but only if I was to keep it for yonks and not care about selling it.
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>> Maybe, but can only speak for myself..i'd be worried about re-sale value, not the quality
>> of the product, because I think it's good.
As someone who's just bought one, I'm hoping scarcity will push its value up at 3yrs!
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>> So i'd still buy the product, no problem, but only if I was to keep
>> it for yonks and not care about selling it.
Exactly my line in buying the 2011 1.9TDI Skoda to which I'm still becoming acclimatised. Intend to keep it at least 5yrs.
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>> Exactly my line in buying the 2011 1.9TDI Skoda to which I'm still becoming acclimatised.
>> Intend to keep it at least 5yrs.
>>
From my angle, you've just joined the 'real world'...;-)
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I would love to grab myself a devalued VW group bargain, however I fancy an auto for my next wagon, and no way will I touch a DSG box.
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Larger capacity engines in Audi's use torque converter autos I believe.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Sun 6 Dec 15 at 19:04
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>> So i'd still buy the product, no problem, but only if I was to keep
>> it for yonks and not care about selling it.
>>
Or the other thing to do is acquire one on PCP or lease and then hand it back - no residual issue then.
That's what VW did in the US almostly instantly the news first hit - many people personal lease there and VW was pretty well paying the upfront payment leaving people able to get cars like Tiguan and Passat for a couple of hundred dollars per month.
However I think even there they've backed off those deals already.
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>>Hard to see it as anything other than the perception of tainted goods.>>
Not correct, according to a BBC News business presenter, who pointed out that Citroen, Fiat and Nissan sales were down and Vauxhall well up in comparison, perhaps due to the new Astra model.
I've said before that I think other marques will be exposed as having done something very similar over the years and there's a more than a hint here:
tinyurl.com/q53une4
Last edited by: Stuartli on Fri 4 Dec 15 at 16:01
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>>and Vauxhall well up in comparison, perhaps due to the new Astra model.
I have decided this week never to buy another Vauxhall even if they are sometimes appealing because everyone that I have driven has had a fault - usually major and three have broken down on me (with the final straw being an Astra hire car this week that failed to go in to any gear).
I have not had the same problems with the Nissans, Rovers, Fords, BMWs or Audis that I have driven.
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I went to the VW Financial Services auction at Blackbushe earlier this week and it seemed pretty busy (only auction on that day) and prices seemed buoyant enough to me. I don't profess to know prices that well but I didn't spot any real bargains. These were mostly cars less than 3 years old.
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>> Not correct, according to a BBC News business presenter, who pointed out that Citroen, Fiat
>> and Nissan sales were down and Vauxhall well up in comparison, perhaps due to the
>> new Astra model.
Got to be careful with one month. Ford and Vauxhall were both well down in October.
Citroen split of the DS range in November - add that back in and they were flat.
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I strongly suspect that provided VW carry out the necessary modifications properly, and there's no glaring loss in performance or economy, this will all have blown over in a year's time. It won't be news any more, and people's memories are short unless they're enthusiasts like ourselves.
The 1.6 TDI is the only engine needing anything major doing to it, and its performance is pretty pedestrian in the first place.
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I strongly suspect that the courtcases and epic fines VW will be facing in every single market they are in will keep this on the boil for the next 2 to 3 years at least.
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>> The 1.6 TDI is the only engine needing anything major doing to it, and its
>> performance is pretty pedestrian in the first place.
>>
Exactly, so what will it be like after any modification. If they can make it hit the figures and drive the same then they would have done it it in the first place
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Perhaps. But equally perhaps the figures and the driveabilty are easy and the cost was previously considered unacceptable.
Usually the challenge these companies have is to make the car do what they want within the cost that the market will stand.
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>> Perhaps. But equally perhaps the figures and the driveabilty are easy and the cost was
>> previously considered unacceptable.
And if fiddling the numbers was already embedded at time why bother doing the hard/costly work in the first place.
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The 1.6 TDI may be a little pedestrian but my Golf equipped with that engine is remarkably pleasant to drive and the engine deliver more than enough power for me. It will cruise all day at motorway spends and is quiet an economical. A far better engine than the somewhat agricultural 1.9 PD engine in the Octavia I previously owned.
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>> The 1.6 TDI is the only engine needing anything major doing to it, and its
>> performance is pretty pedestrian in the first place.
some of the work is pretty major indeed - like the addition of an adblu system!
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Have VW said that or is that just conjecture on your part? Haven't seen anything to that effect elsewhere.
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Seen some stuff in the American press CG.
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>> Have VW said that or is that just conjecture on your part? Haven't seen anything
>> to that effect elsewhere.
I did see a remark from VW somewhere along those lines, "some models" the source and detail however has disappeared in the mist of gin.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 5 Dec 15 at 16:56
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The letter I had from VW indicated that some physical work, i.e. More thqtn a software change would be required but no details of the work specified were given. Indeed it stated that they were still working on the issue and it could take until the end of 2016 until the fix was implemented.
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My Dad has one of the affected 1.6's, his letter from VW seems to indicate that the 2.0ltrs will only need a software update while his 1.6 will just need a set of re-calibrated injectors to bring it into line.
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Just been reading this link:
tinyurl.com/pcq77cc
Apart from the VW software issue, the last paragraph is of personal interest as I have an HTC One M8..:-)
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The letter does not indicate what the solution is, just that a physical modification will be required.
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>>
>> >> The 1.6 TDI is the only engine needing anything major doing to it, and
>> its
>> >> performance is pretty pedestrian in the first place.
>>
>> some of the work is pretty major indeed - like the addition of an adblu
>> system!
>>
That's US specific to meet their regulations. It won't be needed in Europe.
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Indeed... my understanding is that VW don't have to do this corrective work in Europe, it's not a mandatory recall so owners can ignore it if they wish and still pass the current yearly test.
From the VW forums I go on I don't think many of them will take up the offer, what with many of them deciding to delete both their EGR valve and DPF I can't see how they could, and that's without taking into consideration all of the remaps that are in place that would need to be wiped.
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A question was aske in the House about this. A backbencher questioned whether the government would make the update mandatory by altering the MOT system and giving a fail if the upgrade was available and had not been done.
The Government reply was to the effect that that they would closely monitor the situation and implement such steps to ensure compliance with emissions requirements as was necessary.
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Which could affect all of the diesel users who have modified their cars regardless of this issue and would include plenty of non-VW users. I don't agree with the practise but the idea of removing/bypassing any of the manufactures devices (EGR valve being one) doesn't appeal to me although by the sounds of things lots of users have done this.
If any emissions rules change and are applied retrospectively then I can imagine that there could be a scramble each year at MoT time while these guys refit these devises to get through the test.
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>> From the VW forums I go on I don't think many of them will take
>> up the offer, what with many of them deciding to delete both their EGR valve
>> and DPF I can't see how they could, and that's without taking into consideration all
>> of the remaps that are in place that would need to be wiped.
Not having the recall work done will severely wipe a chunk off the resale value.
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>> Not having the recall work done will severely wipe a chunk off the resale value.
Not necessarily, it depends on how well informed the potential buyer is. I for one would not want the recall work done.
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>>I for one would not want the recall work done.
Doesn't that depend?
i.e. if its a bodge to make it retrospectively fit some figures, then I;d agree. But if in fact it is expensive work that they tried to avoid doing but actually does improve the vehicle, wouldn't it probably be worthwhile?
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>> Doesn't that depend?
>>
>> i.e. if its a bodge to make it retrospectively fit some figures, then I;d agree.
>> But if in fact it is expensive work that they tried to avoid doing but
>> actually does improve the vehicle, wouldn't it probably be worthwhile?
>>
Yes, to a degree.. but what is there within the current set up?
Ad Blue.... no thanks.
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>> >> Not having the recall work done will severely wipe a chunk off the resale
>> value.
>>
>> Not necessarily, it depends on how well informed the potential buyer is. I for one
>> would not want the recall work done.
Nor would I, but you and I are not typical car buyers. Not having the recall done will kill the book value for sure, no dealer will touch it.
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I rather think that the fix will reduce mpg by a small but significant figure. Say 5%. Now that would cost me around £4 per month which I can live with but I rather expect that VW will end up offering something in compensation. Perhaps a cash payment of around £200. we shall see.
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>> I rather think that the fix will reduce mpg by a small but significant figure.
>> Say 5%. Now that would cost me around £4 per month which I can live
>> with but I rather expect that VW will end up offering something in compensation. Perhaps
>> a cash payment of around £200. we shall see.
Thats a wish rather than a likely outcome I think. There is a chance that MPG will remain the same, but drivability and power will be compromised. How do you quantify compensation for that?
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Depends how much power is lost. I suppose most drivers,myself included, don't use all that is available so I would be prepared to accept a small change in power output. Just have to wait and see as I said.
Not particularly fussed. I will keep the car for another couple of years at least I think. In all other respects it meets my requirements perfectly
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>> Depends how much power is lost. I suppose most drivers,myself included, don't use all that
>> is available so I would be prepared to accept a small change in power output.
>> Just have to wait and see as I said.
It's not so much a case of using all the power, it's how usable the power is at any given point.
For example, at present, in 5th gear on the m/way and someone moves out of your way and you can seamlessly surge forward.. versus.. having to drop it down a gear to get any oomph.
..or..the diesel car running out of steam very quickly in 1st gear when pulling out of a dodgy junction.. versus.. a little bit more flexibility because you have 500 revs more to use.
Replicate that across the whole driving range and it'd potentially be a different car.
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Yes, I get that but it's a matter of degree isn't it? A small change may well not be noticeable to the the average driver. Nothing I can do about it and so the only option is to wait and see. I dare say we will let lots of reports in the press after the first cars have been modified. VW have more depending on the outcome of these fixes than I have so I'm rather hoping that they come up with the goods.
All in all VW do make good cars and if they can sort this issue properly and fairly I would still consider another although not planning on changing it for a few years
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>> For example, at present, in 5th gear on the m/way and someone moves out of your way and
>> you can seamlessly surge forward.. versus.. having to drop it down a gear to get any oomph.
It was because the CC with the 140PS engine didn't have any oomph in 6th gear on a motorway that I got the 170PS instead. What a difference the extra torque made - and geared differently for sure. From a BIK perspective, the rate was in the same band (125g/km vs 129g/km for CO2) but the list price was higher.
If the options were keep the driving characteristics the same but need an Ad Blue injection system/tank or different driving characteristics.... I'd prefer Ad Blue. It's not particularly expensive.
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The problem with AdBlu is where do you put the tank on a small call like the Golf if you try to retrofit? Would have to go into the bootspace and wouldn't be happy with that.
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>> >> Not having the recall work done will severely wipe a chunk off the resale
>> value.
>>
>> Not necessarily, it depends on how well informed the potential buyer is. I for one
>> would not want the recall work done.
Nor would I, but you and I are not typical car buyers. Not having the recall done will kill the book value for sure, no dealer will touch it. The cap and black book values will reflect that.
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Totally agree that it will depend upon the type of owner, on the Golf owners forums I go on this issue has slipped way down the discussion list, many of these guys will have bought their cars with their own money and are planning to keep them for a good few years, I guess it will be the HP buyers who will feel the need to have any kind of fix applied, it won't be a proper 'recall' so will VW have access to the DVLA records to inform all of the second or third hand owners?
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Volkswagen UK sold almost 20% fewer cars in November compared with the same month in 2014, according to the latest new car registration figures issued by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT).
Volkswagen registered 12,958 cars last month, compared with 16,196 cars in November 2014, a fall of 19.99%. The Volkswagen Golf fell from the UK’s third most registered car to fourth for the month and the Volkswagen Polo fell out of the top ten altogether
www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-suffers-20-sales-slump-november
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I think this was already mentioned elsewhere. The point made was that others had a worse month (Citroen 29% down IIRC).
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>> I think this was already mentioned elsewhere. The point made was that others had a
>> worse month (Citroen 29% down IIRC).
And as also mentioned elsewhere the Citroen fall has a simple explanation - separation of the DS brand. Understand from conversation with dealer that the showrooms will be split/branded from early 2016.
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Bet you within 5 years they are all back under one brand/roof again.
Sometimes marketing men seem to be from a different planet.
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>> Bet you within 5 years they are all back under one brand/roof again.
>>
>> Sometimes marketing men seem to be from a different planet.
Looked at the DS models in the Citroen showroom and struggled to see the market differentiation.
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Trouble is everyone thinks they have a MINI type brand.
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>> Looked at the DS models in the Citroen showroom and struggled to see the market
>> differentiation.
>>
Simples:
More electronic gismos so being French .. less reliable.
:-)
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www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeship/660919
"Central to our Company culture are our global Group values; Customer, Responsibility, Trust, Courage and Enthusiasm, which apply to each and every colleague in our business in every aspect of the way we work. They guide us in everything we do – from key business decisions to day-to-day activities."
Oh yeah? :-)
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VW now reckon it's not 800,000 vehicles, it's "only" 36,000.
Full press release tomorrow at 10 am.
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-volkswagen-emissions-carbon-idUKKBN0TS13620151209
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That's in respect of the second smaller "scandal", regarding carbon dioxide emissions.
Good news for them nonetheless.
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>> www.just-auto.com/news/vw-to-update-on-emissions-scandal-appoints-new-comms-head_id165665.aspx
>>
>> More news on the diesel emissions problem tomorrow.
Separately, Volkswagen adds its long-standing head of brand communications, Peter Thul is to leave the group "by amicable agreement" after 11 years.
His successor is to be former managing editor at group communications, Stefan Ohletz,
The positive spin starts here.
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The press conference is on now, covered with live updates on BBC here www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/business-35008024
Interestingly "VW chief executive Matthias Mueller ... insists that robust solutions for all European vehicles affected have now been found.
"The recently discovered inexpensive solution of a "mesh" to deal with nitrogen dioxide emissions was not available at the time the affected EA 189 engine were produced, he said."
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"1.6 TDI EA189 engines will not be recalled until September 2016, but be given a mechanical upgrade, with a new flow transformer being fitted. This is a mesh that calms the swirled airflow in front of the air mass sensor and will improve the measuring accuracy of the air mass sensor. Again, like the 2.0 and 1.2 TDI recalls, Volkswagen says CO2 emissions, performance and fuel economy will not be impeded by the update. "
Well that doesn't seem too bad at all does it?
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You seriously think its fixed with a vacuum cleaner nozzle?
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I know not but VW say it will and I doubt that they would risk being shown to misleading the authorities again.
Apparently apart from the 1.2 all the other models can be fixed with software modifications.
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Thanks for that, I've bookmarked to show to my Dad who has an affected 1.6 (my 2.0 is a PD so not affected), although neither of us speak German but I think I get the gist of it.
Do you think that they will still have to alter the software on the 1.6 to revert back to normal when being tested?
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>> I know not but VW say it will and I doubt that they would risk
>> being shown to misleading the authorities again.
Look at it like this. They could only meet the requirements by cheating with software, code it has to be said that wasn't easy to work out how to trigger or code.
Suddenly its all fixed in 5 weeks by the addition of a bit of plastic with holes in? Are you seriously suggesting if it was that easy they wouldn't have done it that way in the first place?
It looks like the biggest load of old flannel I have ever seen.
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I agree Zero. The bit of plastic is for show. The software update is what's needed. And it will impact on maybe performance, or perhaps mpg.... but they cheated for a reason. The route taken by other companies was AdBlue which won't be easy/possible to retrofit.
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Well on the one hand we have VW stating that they have q solution which will affect neither perfomance or mpg and I the other hand we have the cynics sayin this is not possible.
Now the question we have to answer is why would a company who's have suffered damaged quantified in billions of Euros bother in Europe and the United States woiuld hold themselves a hostage to fortune and even possible demise of the entire company by once more making claims that are found not to be true?
I know nothing about the technology issues but I struggle to find a reason why VW would risk all in making such assertions.
Any ideas?
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>> Well on the one hand we have VW stating that they have q solution which
>> will affect neither perfomance or mpg and I the other hand we have the cynics
>> sayin this is not possible.
We are saying why did they not achieve it this way in the first place. Surely you must have asked yourself that question?
>Now the question we have to answer is why would a company who's have suffered damaged >quantified in billions of Euros bother in Europe and the United States
Surely the question is, why did they go through all that when then didn't need to for the sake of 5 cents worth of plastic nozzle, a design they managed to conjure up in 5 weeks. hmmm?
Its a smoke screen. The change is code, and something is going to suffer.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 12 Dec 15 at 23:30
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...And whilst we focus on their diesel woes, everyone seems to have overlooked the news that a bunch of VW petrol-engine cars are having their CO2 figures quietly revised upwards for 2016... Surely something fishy there too?
Honda, Mazda, or Mitsi for my next car in a few years' time I think.
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>> Surely the question is, why did they go through all that when then didn't need
>> to for the sake of 5 cents worth of plastic nozzle, a design they managed
>> to conjure up in 5 weeks. hmmm?
>>
>> Its a smoke screen. The change is code, and something is going to suffer.
>>
Of course it is!
I posted some time ago on an earlier section of this discussion (can't find it at the moment) that experts had compared BMW and VW diesels and the BMWs had £500 of extra components fitted to handle the pollution and the experts couldn't see how VW did it and the assertion was that lots of people in the company must have known what was going on.
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> Its a smoke screen. The change is code, and something is going to suffer.
I understand where you are coming from but why would a company in deep trouble for misleading the public make a statement that could be proved to be misleading the public?
If its it a smoke screen as you say it will soon be proved to be wrong just as soon as the experts get their hands on a modified car. It matters not whether the modification is physical or in the computer code, they will be found our if it does not fix the problem or there is a material loss in performance.
The question I am asking is not whether I believe or not whether the proposed fixes will work, I do not know enough to have a view on that, but is why would VW lie? The downside seems huge if they are proved to have done so again.
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I'm sure I read something about the solution uses a technology which wasn't available at the time. I've had a look round and can't find it now but will look again later.
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Yes I read that - something about nitrogen mesh.
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Ta CGN. This page contains a VW video explaining the mesh and says it was possible due to progress made in engine development and improved airflow simulation inside complex air intake systems. improved development. "This component stabilizes the airflow and allows a more precise measurement of the incoming fresh airflow. As a result the fuel can be metered more precisely and we improve emissions" www.carsuk.net/vw-emissions-fix-in-the-uk-and-europe-can-it-really-be-so-simple/
Software would need to be changed to remove the cheat code.
This week's press release at www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/12/VW_PK.html says the Europe and US solutions will be different due to more stringent requirements in the US, and the solution is not yet agreed.
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>> Yes I read that - something about nitrogen mesh.
Don't believe a word of it.
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>>
>> Don't believe a word of it.
>>
So I ask again "why would they lie?"
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>>
>> >>
>> >> Don't believe a word of it.
>> >>
>> So I ask again "why would they lie?"
I dont think they are, I think stuff is leaking with no clear message. There are multiple differing issues in multiple differing markets, and "commentators" are mixing the whole lot up into one "problem and cure"
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>> >> Yes I read that - something about nitrogen mesh.
>>
>> Don't believe a word of it.
Didn't have time to elucidate the reasoning behind that statement.
Fluid dynamics (and thats what airflow is) is a well understood science. Yes it can be tweaked - slightly - and yes the more computer horsepower you can't throw at it the more you can experiment. Don't deny breakthroughs happen. But they are not huge.
You can't however suddenly ramp up, unplanned, computing horsepower (specifically modelling horsepower) and come up with a break through, ready for production, in 6 weeks.
The salient point here, is that there are different issues, Emissions, consumption, differing standards for differing markets, to resolve, they wont have the same cure. There is a very poor unmanaged stream of information coming out of VW at the moment, being reported differently in differing sources.
probably why they sacked the director of communications.
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>>
>> Didn't have time to elucidate the reasoning behind that statement.
>
Though not.
I guess time will tell where they are lieing or not. We shall see.
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>>
>> >>
>> >> Didn't have time to elucidate the reasoning behind that statement.
>> >
>>
>> Though not.
conclusion was still valid tho.
And you are getting hung up with"lying"
As i said, information flow is poor and confused, and you seem desperate to grab any small crumb of comfort going. If it was me, I wouldn't give a stuff and leave the car as is. Possibly, at the very worse case, kick up a fuss and get it fixed free just before i flog it.
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The car is an excellent car. I have no intention of getting rid in the near future. I will have whatever fix VW bring forward and I am not concerned whether or not there is any marginal loss in power or mpg. Like most drivers I bought the car for the overall package which for me is a good one. Don't even care about any loss in trade in value. In the scheme of things a few quid here and there is not an issue. If I wanted a different car I would go out tomorrow and get one
VW say they have found a fix and that there should be little affect on the car. I have no reason to disbelieve them.
As I say time will tell.
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>
>> VW say they have found a fix and that there should be little affect on
>> the car.
Have they? do you have a definitive authoritative attributable source direct from VW?
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 13 Dec 15 at 11:19
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And that says what about no adverse performance changes? "optimise" - says nothing me ole fruit.
Anyway, this is going round in circles, you are the customer, if you are happy then all is well for you.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 13 Dec 15 at 19:24
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Yes its all conjecture. Will wait and see. Will return to the matter when the fix is being implemented.
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>> Yes its all conjecture. Will wait and see. Will return to the matter when the
>> fix is being implemented.
My Roomie has the 1.6TDi unit. I'll wait and see and let others recieve/report in modification v1.0 before getting mine done after at least 1.4 and possibly v2.4.
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>> VW say they have found a fix
I have just arrived here from Mars.
Please do tell me, Mr Norwich, what is wrong with your car?
It starts, it stops, it runs. What is the problem?
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 13 Dec 15 at 19:37
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>> We are saying why did they not achieve it this way in the first place.
>> Surely you must have asked yourself that question?
Once you have a mindset that tolerates breaches of the rules (see Smokie's link below) then that's the line of least resistance - why bother with difficult stuff if you can frigg the tests?
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>> Once you have a mindset that tolerates breaches of the rules (see Smokie's link below)
>> then that's the line of least resistance - why bother with difficult stuff if you
>> can frigg the tests?
Because "frigging the tests" was not an easy "fix" It was a cheaper fix, really really really cheaper, but not easier. Of course, once you have done the hard work, its spectacularly easy to replicate and modify as required, and really really really harder to beg for development money to do it "properly" (and because you have to admit it was frigged in the first place)
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The short 5 week development time might be because this type of flow straightener isn't new to VAG/Bosch, I've read that something similar was used back in the MK3 days.
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>> The short 5 week development time might be because this type of flow straightener isn't
>> new to VAG/Bosch, I've read that something similar was used back in the MK3 days.
So why was it dropped?
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That's better :)
In a similar vein [in my way of thinking] the new multifool stove I've recently had installed burns away like there's no tomorrow - even with all the air intakes fully closed (just as well it's been so mild down sowf)
After much research, I found out (from a chap in NZ) they 'modern' stoves are designed that way to meet CO emission levels + efficiency figures (haha!)
Having an engineering background (more haha!) um gonna doctor the thing to do what I want it to do.
Last edited by: Dog on Sun 13 Dec 15 at 13:20
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There have been reports kicking around for a few days that VW will have to buy back 115,000 vehicles in the US that can't be retro-fitted with Ad Blue.
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I'm not sure I agree with Dave sticking this in the VW thread. What do others think?
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He didn't - WP's post pre-dates the new thread by several hours.
Janner's in with Rolf and Jimmy, so I don't see a problem.
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I'd rather see them separate.
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>> He didn't
Correct. All I did was point the other post in this direction as it already had a mention.
>> I'd rather see them separate.
Plenty of other manufacturers have got a mention in this, and the 5 previous threads. If you think I'm going through that lot and separating them out, no way.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 16 Jan 16 at 17:56
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I neither think nor worry about what you may do. An opinion was sought and i offered one.
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As far as I can see, while there's been speculation about other manufacturers, the raid on Renault is first formal move against company outside of VAG .
As such it's not about Volkswagen Recall but is a new subject.
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One less sale for VW - idle_chatterer
