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Ongoing Emissions
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Nov 15 at 10:24
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If I were to buy a second hand VW that fitted within the criteria of this current hoo-hah, I'd ensure it was one that had NOT been back to VW for a fix.
I'd want one that maximised the performance versus economy versus longevity... I certainly wouldn't want one that was flat to drive, even if there were other benefits, which is debatable.
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It's all been done before. TR6s were derated for the US market to meet Californian emmisions regulations, then promptly un-derated by canny owners to make them go properly.
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Hardly the same thing.
Triumph weren't deceiving anyone, the vehicles could still pass an emissions test provided they were in correct tune, and nobody lost any money or broke the law.
Other than that of course, identical.
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"It's all been done before"
I think so. It may be a question of degree, but even catalysers and EGR valves scam the system to some extent, as neither operates until they reach a certain temperature, by which time many journeys are over. In practice, the tested emission levels are never reached, if the other things like removing the brake pads, pumping up the tyres and taping up the shut lines (not sure how wind resistance is simulated on a rolling road) are all done. VW's crime was really just making it all happen automatically...
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VW's crime was really just making it all happen automatically...
And the breaking of the 11th commandment, thou shalt not get caught. I remain convinced somebody else has done similar, just that no-one yet has detected it.
What really needs to be done is no fancy test, other than perhaps one to give a provisional rating, and to test some cars - exactly as found in the showroom. Might bring an end to the absolutly unattainable mpg some makers claim.
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>> If I were to buy a second hand VW that fitted within the criteria of this current hoo-hah, I'd ensure it was one that had NOT been back to VW for a fix.
I'm not so sure about that stance. I wonder if there may be any insurance implications if one ends up driving a car that is no longer in accordance with the claimed manufacturer's specifications.
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The only issue would seem to be NOx emissions. The cars are perfectly safe to drive and perform as the owner expects. It's just that they are pumping out a lot of NOx that they shouldn't be.
If performance or anything else is impacted by a 'fix' then you could argue that's a problem. And I know it's not a 'fix' as such. The car isn't broken - it just can't pass the test for emissions.
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...and since the only problems that causes are to someone else and not you, who gives a toss anyway?
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>> ...and since the only problems that causes are to someone else and not you, who gives a toss anyway?
Makea mockery of Euro V testing I guess. And those who are suffering respiratory problems might give a toss I suppose.
So far I am finding the performance and drivability of my petrol 1.4 turbo really good. I first got a turbo petrol car in 1999 and everything since I've driven has had a turbo (petrols and diesels).
In the real world, the current car has similar economy to my last car which was diesel. But it was more powerful and quite a bit bigger and heavier.
Perhaps diesels are getting too complicated to meet emission targets?
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You don't say what your last car was, RTJ.
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:-)
Well it did have the EA189 engine. And the 170PS variant was better and more flexible than the 140PS one..... Probably emitted far more NOx too.
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>> Perhaps diesels are getting too complicated to meet emission targets?
>>
It was reckoned that Euro6 was about the limit of what made sense economically for diesel engines.
The industry is complaining that expected Euro 7 limits are going to be tough even for petrol's.
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So in 2017 I could order say a Passat GTE which in theory does amazing mpg and has really low CO2 emissions and pay lower tax for BIK. And then never plug it in to charge it and would never get the theoretical mpg figures nor the CO2 numbers.
So isn't that nearly as bad as this issue.
I know the issue is NOx and not CO2 but you get the drift. But the test for a hybrid is even more irrelevant.
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>>So isn't that nearly as bad as this issue.
Of course not: in that example it is the customer's choice not to charge the vehicle.
Likewise I could drive like a doorknob and get sub-20mpg - is that the manufacturer's fault?
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But it is similar. How a vehicle is actually driven is how it pollutes. The tests are largely pointless it seems.
>> in that example it is the customer's choice not to charge the vehicle.
If I get a Passat GTE, road tax and BIK is based on the official figure foR CO2 emissions. But I'd never plug it in so in the real world all emissions are higher because it will not run all electric all the time.
So basically it's taxed on invalid usage data. If my Audi A3 saloon petrol turbo emits around 110g/km, how can a Passat GTE using only petrol be cleaner?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Fri 9 Oct 15 at 01:40
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>>So basically it's taxed on invalid usage data
Until VED is scrapped and the tax is entirely lumped onto fuel duty, this is and always has been an issue.
VW is getting rogered because they cheated, selling millions of vehicles that were specifically programmed to defeat emissions testing.
In doing this they probably saved a few hundred quid per car not needing to engineer them to a higher emissions standard.
They are (quite rightly) going to get hammered in the only way that counts for a multinational industrial - in the pocketbook.
The £20bn+ they are going to have to stump up will come from shareholders and customers.
Enjoy your next VW ;-)
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Here is an interesting development. VW has removed its application to sell 2016 diesels in the US. Now if this latest diesel engine does not meet US regs (and we have to assume it either doesn't or is fitted with a similar defeat device), then it certainly wont pass Euro 6 either...That opens up a lot more pain (if this is the case..)
WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen of America isn’t expected to begin selling 2016 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines for several months as the EPA plans to subject the vehicles to a battery of tests to ensure they comply with U.S. emissions laws before sales can begin.
Chris Grundler, director of the EPA’s Office of Transportation and Air Quality that oversees auto emissions regulations, said in an interview with Automotive News that the agency’s process to certify VW’s 2016 model year lineup powered by the 2.0-liter engines will take “a matter of months†to complete.
That process cannot begin until VW submits a new application to the EPA for certification that the 2016 model year Golf, Passat, Beetle and Jetta diesel models meet clean air standards. The automaker withdrew an application to have the vehicles certified by the EPA this week.
It’s unclear when VW plans to submit a new application. A Volkswagen spokeswoman said a timeframe for when the company plans to go back to the agency was unavailable. Whenever that happens, Grundler says “we will want to test them thoroughly and in different ways†before the agency has confidence that the vehicles comply.
The delay is another major blow for VW and its roughly 650 U.S. dealers, many of whom are struggling with profitability amid tepid sales. Diesel-powered vehicles have accounted for about 20 percent of VW’s U.S. sales this year.
Volkswagen also has to explain the function and purpose of a previously-undisclosed software feature in its 2016 diesel models’ emissions controls, which is different than the “defeat device†software at the center of VW’s violations.
Grundler: “We’re going to be asking lots of questions because of the sad history here, where we’ve been told one thing and found another.â€
Photo credit: BLOOMBERG
Grundler said VW “very recently†told the agency about the software, which he said has been used on one or more model years. That disclosure prompted VW’s withdrawal of the certification request for 2016 models this week.
Grundler says VW must explain the function of the software in its new application, calling the issue a “wrinkle†that could affect how quickly it is resolved.
“We don’t know if this is a defeat device,†Grundler said. “We have many questions.â€
VW says the software is a so-called auxiliary emissions control device, a common feature in cars that regulate engine performance and affect emissions. Such software is legal if its functions can be observed during testing and it is properly disclosed to the agency, Grundler said, adding that a common use is to protect engines from sustaining damage due to overheating.
The EPA plans to submit VW vehicles to a battery of confirmatory tests once the 2016 model year diesel application is received. The speed with which that testing can be completed is uncertain, Grundler said, as the agency has to accommodate VW diesels in an already busy test schedule.
The agency, in response to VW's violations, has launched an extraordinary review, in labs and on the road, of all light-duty diesel vehicles on the market.
“I don’t know how many months,†Grundler said. “We have a very strong sense of urgency to address this and we’re pressing VW very hard for answers.â€
Similarly, the process to review and approve any fixes for 2.0-liter diesel engines from the 2009-2015 model years already on the road will also take months from the time the fixes are proposed, Grundler said.
The EPA will review VW’s proposals for how they plan to bring the 482,000 vehicles carrying the illegal software at the heart of the violations into compliance with U.S. emissions laws.
With three generations of 2.0-liter diesel engines involved, each generation will require a unique fix, each of which will be tested by EPA and California Air Resources Board engineers to ensure the fixes work.
Grundler said the agency has pressed VW to propose a range of options for each generation of the engine, and says he expects to see a proposal for at least the 2012-14 Passat TDI’s as early as next week.
Said Grundler: “The caveat here is we’re going to be asking lots of questions because of the sad history here, where we’ve been told one thing and found another.â€
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 9 Oct 15 at 10:23
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Are used diesels going to be cheaper in short/long term (any make) because of this scandal?
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>> Here is an interesting development. VW has removed its application to sell 2016 diesels in
>> the US. Now if this latest diesel engine does not meet US regs (and we
>> have to assume it either doesn't or is fitted with a similar defeat device), then
>> it certainly wont pass Euro 6 either...That opens up a lot more pain (if this
>> is the case..)
>>
I thought the US regs were much tougher even than Euro 6?
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>> So in 2017 I could order say a Passat GTE which in theory does amazing
>> mpg and has really low CO2 emissions and pay lower tax for BIK. And then
>> never plug it in to charge it and would never get the theoretical mpg figures
>> nor the CO2 numbers.
>>
The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is already infamous for that. Without looking it up it's spec'd at something like 150MPG and hardy any CO2 but in practice the electric range is about 20 miles so most of the time it's running on its petrol engine.
And if you calculate in the CO2 emitted by powerstations to generate the electricity to charge the batteries then even the test figure should be multiple times higher than stated.
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Yes but, the test states the range etc.. and the Mitsubishi does the test and obtains the figures quoted. (The BMW i8 did similar on topgear, 100+mpg translated to 30mpg)
The tax bands are based on this test. The counter argument is that if you have a short commute you would better those figures. Depends really on what you use it for. Not really the same as a cheat device
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"if you calculate in the CO2 emitted by powerstations to generate the electricity"
Absolutely. In the real world, electricity is largely generated by coal and gas, so unless you have your own personal windmill or lunar panels, there is a CO2 component in every recharge. Personally, I think the effects of CO2 are wildly exaggerated, and there is even an argument to be had about whether atmospheric CO2 is an effect (of ocean outgassing when warmed) rather than a cause!
As it happens, Wind power is currently flatlining, producing a mere 1.5% of the UK requirement. Good job we don't depend on it.. :-)
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
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Personally, I think the effects of CO2 are wildly exaggerated...
This from someone who last week didn't know the difference between CO and CO2. But what does the consensus of scientists not in the pay of the oil industry know next to a bloke on an Internet forum?
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"the consensus of scientists"
The 97%, presumably?
This is worth a read, and a lot more has been written about the 'consensus' which, of course, is no way to do science in the first place.
blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/makingsciencepublic/2013/07/23/whats-behind-the-battle-of-received-wisdoms/
You're right that I'm just a bloke on an Internet forum, but I do read a bit and having once regarded the 'science' as kosher, even defending wind turbines on local blogs, I found that the sceptical blogs were much more open to debate (and less prone to deleting adverse comments) than were the alarmist ones, whom you might have expected to have some confidence in their pronouncements. They still jet around the globe to conferences, too, and build waterside houses, which is rather at odds with their stated beliefs...
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>>In the real world, electricity is largely generated by coal and gas
www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/
I guess the Frogs live in some fantasy land (yeah, I know: the EU)
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Lygonos
I meant in the UK, where we seem to be having trouble arranging just one new nuclear installation! The French have lots of them, as you observe, and export power all over.
I did say 'largely'.. :-)
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More problems?
EU bank chief 'could recall VW loans'
EIB gave loans to the German carmaker for things like the development of low emissions engines. He said they could be recalled in the wake of VW's emissions cheating.
The paper reported that about €1.8bn (£1.3bn) of those loans are still outstanding.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34501664
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About 400,000 Volkwagen cars in the UK will need fuel injectors altered as well as a software fix, its UK boss said.
Paul Willis, UK managing director, said that cars fitted with the 1.6L diesel engine would need the physical remedy.
Those with the larger 2L engine would only need a software fix, he told the Commons Transport select committee.........
He told the MPs on the committee that VW first sold cars with engines that could cheat emissions testing in the UK in 2008.
A total of 1.2 million vehicles sold in the UK had been affected, but the remaining two thirds would only need software altered, Mr Willis explained.
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But there has to be a downside to the changes. Otherwise they'd have not cheated. I wonder when they tell us all what impact it has? e.g. fuel economy or performance... or both.
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Or cost of the hardware. New injectors is an interesting one; they're a couple of hundred pounds apiece (or were when I needed older-tech ones for the previous car). That could be part of this £500 of extra kit found in BMW engines but not in VW's.
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I'd say a small majority of drivers are so insensitive and so slow that they won't notice any difference whatever is done to their cars.
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>> New injectors is an interesting one; they're a couple of hundred pounds apiece
To the consumer yes, but cost price to VAG will be a smaller % of that. Bigger problem for them (or the poor techs) will be getting the old ones out.
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>> I'd say a small majority of drivers are so insensitive and so slow that they
>> won't notice any difference whatever is done to their cars.
I don't think I would to be honest, if it was just a matter of a few horsepowers. I don't use them all very often and one thing I learned long ago is that I 'normalise' to almost anything, power-wise, within a short time.
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I wondered if the 1.6 used solenoid injectors and the 2.0 piezo ones. But according to Wiki both versions of the EA189 use 8 hole piezo injectors. Maybe they need to be recalibrated/fettled in some way rather than replaced - the BBC report I just heard only referred to "hardware changes".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines
Piezo type are said to offer the more scope for timing and number of injections per cycle.
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BBC 6pm news this evening included a report showing official testing of what they say is a known VAG cheat (Skodia Fabia?) in the lab ('secret location') and on the road, although it doesn't give any results ('may take weeks').
FFWD to 14:00
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06gxy79/bbc-news-at-six-12102015
Last edited by: Focusless on Mon 12 Oct 15 at 21:07
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Odd they forgot that one...the EA189 3 cylinder 1.2 is the 1.6 with the same engine designation minus one cylinder.
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Pffft.... I drove a "new"* Passat 2.0 Bluemotion today. It was the first car I've stalled repeatedly in years. It had absolutely no get-up-and-go from a standstill, and worse turbo lag than the 1995 1.8TD Mondeo I used to own.
I have no idea if the VW'd had recall action applied or not, but it was shockingly bad to drive. And only 50mpg average over 60 miles, my heavier, older, auto RWD Merc could match that.
*1st Sept 65 reg, 81 miles, likely been sitting on Alconbury airfield since about April
Last edited by: Dave_C220CDI on Mon 12 Oct 15 at 22:20
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>> Pffft.... I drove a "new"* Passat 2.0 Bluemotion today.
I had a similar problem a few years ago with a Passat, repeated stalling, I only had the car for a few days, not long enough to get used to its power delivery characteristics.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 12 Oct 15 at 22:27
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Could be ON, it was the weediest thing I've driven in a while.
Last edited by: Dave_C220CDI on Mon 12 Oct 15 at 22:33
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in 2012 I had two hire cars for 12 months. One was a 2l Passat TDI and the other was a Vauxhall Insignia 2l TDI.
The Insignia won hands down. It wasn't as competent all around as the Passat, but it was seriously more fun to drive and had a much higher quality interior specification.
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It beats me that Å koda is supposed to be the budget VW, yet the Superb feels fresh, elegant, even luxurious, whereas the Passat is where grey polyester goes to die. Sat in a new estate in 2012 and couldn't even bear to ask for a test drive.
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I see an announcement today says they will be going with Adblue in future.
"It was decided to switch over to installing only diesel drives with SCR and AdBlue technology in Europe and North America as soon as possible. Diesel vehicles will only be equipped with exhaust emissions systems that use the best environmental technology."
from today's press release at www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/10/VW_Effizienz.html
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I thought the issue with AdBlue is that at the rate its needed its either a customer fill or greatly reduces the service intervals?
Anyway, does anyone remember this....
www.bbc.com/news/business-27392157
I notice an MP yesterday questioned if they could be believed on safety!
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Ah yes...we have short memories...
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I can't think of a good practical reason why anyone would want their car altered because of a special mode used only during (artificial) testing conditions. Leave them as they are and let the regulators who turned a blind eye to unrealistic tests wriggle on the hook!
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Tue 13 Oct 15 at 18:49
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The media are still winding people up about this, heard a radio report today where they were going to accompany/film a buyer of a new Golf GTD to the dealership where he was going to demand his money back, had to turn-off so no idea of the outcome.
My Dad just got his notice from VW today to say his 1.6 TDi was affected (didn't explain what they might do), my trusty PD is OK.
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Friend had one on his brand new A4....at least its leased.
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>> they were going to accompany/film a buyer of a new Golf GTD to the dealership
>> where he was going to demand his money back,
On what grounds?
It starts, stops and runs. What is his complaint?
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I think its reasonable on the grounds of is it what it says it is. Does it have xBHP vs yCO2 vs zNOx?
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>> I think its reasonable on the grounds of is it what it says it is.
>> Does it have xBHP vs yCO2 vs zNOx?
In the relevant tests, yes.
The beef is with whoever did the testing and published the figures.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 14 Oct 15 at 08:23
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"The beef is with whoever did the testing and published the figures"
Exactly. They know and admit (when pressed) that all the tests are unrealistic - VW just found a way of making them more so.
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Get it bought. Just make sure it hasn't been 'upgraded'!
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>> On what grounds?
I heard he was fuming.
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I think the reporters were egging the punter on to make a scene at the dealership which they could then film/record and broadcast as 'news'.
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Spoke today with the chappy at a local garage that does sales and who I used to do the odd deal with. We spoke about the trade and the VW subject came up (he's got a couple on his forecourt).
He was at an auction recently where a decent looking diesel Golf with 22k mileage came up, CAP was £8300... and no one would bid above £5K.
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Why are VW owners bothered? Or potential owners, for that matter.
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A critical thinker might wonder that. But how many of those read the Daily Mail? And we've had enough trouble here working out what will happen next.
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As an owner I am not particularly bothered and will have the car fixed if there is not a significant effect on perfomance. My concern is more that others are concerned and it is likely to have an effect on resale value.
I would be more annoyed if I had planned to sell the vehicle in the nest few months before the situation is clarified with uncertainty having a significant adverse effect on value.
As it is I shall probably keep the car for another three years at least. I really like the car - Golf 1.6 TDI Match as it does everything I need.
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If the report is right and in a test situation the catalytic converter is heated more quickly, then I assume this would use more fuel? In ordinary driving if this didn't happen it would use less but fail the emission test.
They must measure mpg and emissions in different tests then?
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I understood - in the EU test at least - that the car was allowed to be fully warmed up beforehand, presumably including the catalyst. US rules will presumably be different.
Nice picture of Spike Milligan in the report.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Thu 15 Oct 15 at 08:08
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>> Why are VW owners bothered? Or potential owners, for that matter.
Uncertainty. No-one knows what the impact will be of these 'amendments'. Or at least not widely understood yet anyway.
Last edited by: The Melting Snowman on Wed 14 Oct 15 at 18:58
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And now Germany's automotive watchdog, the Federal Motor Transport Authority, is forcing VW to recall 2.4M vehicles after rejecting a proposal under which diesel owners would voluntarily bring them in for fixes
www.cnbc.com/2015/10/15/watchdog-orders-vw-to-recall-24m-vehicles-report.html
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It will be interesting to see VW registrations for October.
A steady stream of more bad news shows VAG management either don't know what is going on (most likely) or are carp at news management..
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>> A steady stream of more bad news shows VAG management either don't know what is
>> going on (most likely) or are carp at news management..
>>
I thought there were enough examples of how such companies should deal with the PR in such cases.
At least keep the press fully informed and avoid vast speculation ?
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Yes but their head of US operations sat infront of the senate and said there were a few rogue engineers who masterminded this whole fraudulent fiasco. When pressed he even said it was hard to believe. WHEN it comes out that isn't true its not going to help them one iota
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I was chatting with a friend who had just had his Octavia Vrs MOTd at his local dealer. (Half price offer). Apparently new car sales are holding up OK, but second hand VAG diesels are not selling at all, according to the salesman who tried to sell him a new car. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 31 Oct 15 at 18:08
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>>...but second hand VAG diesels are not selling at all..>>
Would seem an ideal time to buy then and at a good price for anyone who wants one; they haven't become bad cars overnight.
Presumably VAG will put right all the wrongs in due course, although it may well take some time.
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>> Presumably VAG will put right all the wrongs in due course, although it may well take some time.
But if correcting NOx emissions has an impact on performance, fuel consumption... or whatever... then that's a bad outcome for owners.
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Depends how much of an impact it has. As an owner of one of the affected cars I wouldn't be unduly bothered by a couple of percent dip in perfomance etc.
Bigger concern is a dip in resale value. I suspect that VW will end up offering some sort of financial recompense, perhaps an enhanced trade in value.
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>> Bigger concern is a dip in resale value. I suspect that VW will end up
>> offering some sort of financial recompense, perhaps an enhanced trade in value.
Not seen a drop in the values of 2nd hand VW diesels on Autotrader.
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That's America. Diesel is a minority sport
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>> That's good then. Let's hope they stay that way and don't follow the U.S. market.
>>
>> autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/used-vw-diesels-prices-nosedive-while-waiting-repair-news
>>
When you buy a used car in the US it has to be re-registered and I think that can't be done on the affected cars until they're fixed. If I've got that right then effectively they're almost worthless at the moment.
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Took our Golf in for a service and MOT a couple of weeks ago and got chatting to the salesman whilst waiting. He reckons their sales of new VWs have increased since the emissions scandal.
Existing customers with affected vehicles claiming they need to trade their Euro 5 diesel for a Euro 6 diesel, a TSI petrol or a GTE. Can't believe how gullible (and seemingly well off) some people are.
Can't see any reason to change ours any time soon. On the basis of what the salesman was saying, there does seem to be a blind faith in VAG, if existing customers who've been 'let down' re their vehicles emissions are happy to line VWs pockets by splashing out on a brand new motor!!
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>> Took our Golf in for a service and MOT a couple of weeks ago and
>> got chatting to the salesman whilst waiting. He reckons their sales of new VWs have
>> increased since the emissions scandal.
Would you seriously expect a VW salesman to say anything else ?
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>> On the basis of what
>> the salesman was saying, there does seem to be a blind faith in VAG, if
>> existing customers who've been 'let down' re their vehicles emissions are happy to line VWs
>> pockets by splashing out on a brand new motor!!
>>
I have to say that many people really do seem to love VW and delight in absolutely hosing money into VW.
We recently bought a Tiguan and so I joined one of the relevant forums. Astonishing how many members are on the their 3rd or even 4th Tiguan - the car has only existed for about 8 years!
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>> Astonishing how many members are on the their 3rd or even 4th Tiguan - the car has only existed for about 8 years!>>
If the cars are leased and changed, for example, every three years, then after six years three new Tiguans will have been acquired.
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>> If the cars are leased and changed, for example, every three years, then after six
>> years three new Tiguans will have been acquired.
>>
I've been on there for a couple of months now and my impression is that they're generally older people and they're taking the cars on PCP and then either the dealer is calling them after a couple of years to offer them a deal or they're just deciding to change the cars themselves.
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I have to say that many people really do seem to love VW and delight
>> in absolutely hosing money into VW.
>>
>> We recently bought a Tiguan and so I joined one of the relevant forums. Astonishing how many members are on the their 3rd or even 4th Tiguan - the car has only existed for about 8 years!
>>
No great surprise they've got a very strong brand following. A new car every 2 or 3 years is routine for many, nothing odd in that even spending their own money. I know a couple of people who would have nothing but vw. They go to all the shows in the summer etc. Not for me, too expensive for what they are to my eyes.
Their strong following is why i think they'll shrug off this emissions business.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 1 Nov 15 at 11:53
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The neighbour across the road has a Tiguan...:-)
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I don't think that's a particularly VW thing. Quite a few people still change their car every couple of years for a new one,whatever the make. Years ago when warranties were shorter and were less reliable it made a degree of sense. I suppose if you have the money and you like driving a new car, why not? You have to spend the wretched stuff on something. You can't take it with you!
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You have to spend the wretched stuff on something.
>>
Never heard money called that before!
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 1 Nov 15 at 11:55
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Money truly is wretched stuff. It causes more upset, strife, jealousy and grief than any other substance known to man.
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"The lack of money is the root of all evil"
~Twain.
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>> Money truly is wretched stuff. It causes more upset, strife, jealousy and grief than any
>> other substance known to man.
>>
Money doesn't do anything it just sits there, it's people that's the problem. Even if we got rid of it, people would find something else to fight about.
If it causes you too many problems feel free to send some of it my way.
I promise i won't curse it or call it names ;)
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I would but it will only make you miserable.
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>> I would but it will only make you miserable.
>>
It's okay I'll take your misery away and take the hit. I'm that sort of helpful chap.
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According to the Daily Mail the Americans have found defeat software in VAG 3.0 diesel engines fitted in Touaregs, and also Porsche Cayennes and AUDI A6 quattro's.
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If true this is pushing rather more towarss a company strategy than a couple of rogues.
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I have never believed that this was done by a couple of rouge employees.
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>> I have never believed that this was done by a couple of rouge employees.
>>
I have posted this in more detail earlier on this saga....
Interviewed on Radio 4, 4 business experts including prominent ex CEOs of major corps some with engineering backgrounds said..."BMW's engines had £500 in extra components to achieve the required emissions. The VAG ones did not, yet managed to achieve the required emissions."
Some one in the organisation must have wondered how it was being done!
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>> Some one in the organisation must have wondered how it was being done!
Directors and senior managers will have told the engineers to meet standard x, engineers will have come back and said "tis done" here is the test results, Directors and senior managers will have asked "how and how much" and the answer will have been "Software and not much" and there the conversation will have stopped.
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>> Directors and senior managers will have told the engineers to meet standard x,
>>
Golden rule, distance yourself and keep it deniable. Just like politicians.
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>> >> Directors and senior managers will have told the engineers to meet standard x,
>> >>
>>
>> Golden rule, distance yourself and keep it deniable. Just like politicians.
Its called delegation. The person delegated too, came up with the bright idea "I know - we will cheat" buoyed by the even brighter thought "no one will ever know" (despite putting millions of bits of evidence in the public domain)
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>> I have never believed that this was done by a couple of rouge employees.
No, there'll be a lot more than two red faces.
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>> >> I have never believed that this was done by a couple of rouge employees.
>>
>> No, there'll be a lot more than two red faces.
There I gave you a red face, to make the number up to three.
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Thanks, I haven't got many of those, being the voice of reason :)
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I generally find it's easier to get them in threads about the European products of an American motor company, rather than the other way round.
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There, just to prove you wrong, you got one.
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>> If true this is pushing rather more towarss a company strategy than a couple of
>> rogues.
It was always going to be the case. I am surprised people are surprised its standard across the company because its departmentalisation and standardisation at work. VW is the wold leader in standardisation of components and sub assemblies across marques and models. It was always going to be the case that car cpus would always be based upon common code, with engine type specific tweaks. The "cheat code" is likely to be core code and one functional department will have been tasked with engine cpus across all models and marques.
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Volkswagen Recall - Volume 3 - Westpig
