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More debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Apr 13 at 12:46
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Whilst Savile was undoubtedly an unpleasant controlling character, and quite possibly guilty, the whole Yewtree approach beggars belief and should give rise to some concern about the conduct of the police then, and now.
30-40 years ago, despite complaints apparently, the police evidently found nothing worth pursuing. Decades later, in the absence of much of any corroborating evidence that might have been available at the time and without questioning Savile who is conveniently dead, they are sufficiently confident to state unequivocally that he committed "214 crimes ... across 28 police force areas, including 34 of rape or penetration".
The way in which living celebs have been arrested is unbelievable and I simply cannot understand how it can be justified. If somebody accuses me of an arrestable offence committed 30 years ago, should I expect to find police at the airport when I return from holiday? Or have them bashing my door down at 6am and informing the press?
For probably the first time ever I think maybe Richard Littlejohn has a point.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256817/RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-Who-said-Jim-Davidson-arrested.html
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Yes MT, Littlejohn does make a good point.
Some of these well known people have been arrested in ways usually reserved for cheap cop shows, why?, was sunny Jim or any of the others likely to leap into one of their cars make a mad dash crashing through the primiter fence at Heathrow and leap daredevil like into the undercarriage of a BA jumbo?
Is there something sinister going on that an independant media should be following instead.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Fri 11 Jan 13 at 19:37
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At the moment Saville is guilty of nothing and it will remain that way.
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>> At the moment Saville is guilty of nothing and it will remain that way.
>>
The trouble when your dead is you can be guilty of everything - which suits an awful lot of people.
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Nah, you can be accused of everything, but you are guilty of nothing.
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>> but you are guilty of nothing.
Quite right. Savile wasn't a 'bit of a lad' or a 'nonce' or a 'prolific serial sex offender' according to what passes for the law. What he always was though was a noisy huge piece of very smelly excrement held to our noses for half a century by people who ought to have known better, and actually did know better.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, who ever had a good word to say for him deserves utter contempt. The only excuse in my book is extreme stupidity. But people seldom admit to that.
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So what do the Police do - ignore the allegations ? or investigate them ? Damned whatever they do.
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>> So what do the Police do - ignore the allegations ? or investigate them ?
When he was alive might have been a good idea.
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>> So what do the Police do - ignore the allegations ? or investigate them ?
>> Damned whatever they do.
The police probably haven't been given a choice by the polticians. But why the public arrests and dawn raids?
And yes, they probably should ignore the allegations against dead people unless they are investigating associated alleged offences by people still alive, such as accessories, and police who failed to investigate at the time perhaps.
They can't bring Savile to trial, and he can't defend himself. What's the point? It's tying up 30 officers when there are ongoing cuts to save money.
We already know that the BBC didn't cover itself in glory but any fines imposed on it will be wooden dollars since it is funded by us.
That's before you start on all the inquiries being conducted by the BBC itself and all the hospitals involved. Does nobody have the courage to say "no, we are not going to waste time and resources having an inquiry that won't change anything. Everybody, get over it or learn to live with it. He's dead".
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I think part of the point was at least to give victims a voice in all this, albeit too late - but still.
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>>
>> Some of these well known people have been arrested in ways usually reserved for cheap
>> cop shows, why?,
>>
It's the way the police operate now. In any crime that attracts the public eye they have to act up to fit their new macho image. They have given them the combat gear and all the kit and it's gone to their heads.
It's like firemen and their life-saving gear needed to rescue a squirrel.
They are actors on a stage. I'm sure there must have been some studies done on the effects of giving people different styles of uniform.
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I've managed to resist the temptation to join this discussion until now, after reading Manatee's reasoned opinion above and realising that I am not the only one who wonders just what the hell is going on.
I saw some UK TV news coverage of this yesterday and couldn't help thinking there were elements of Jeremy Kyle in it. I know some of the allegations are horrendous, but, at a lower level, everybody knew about groupies and their exploits didn't they?
I just can't help thinking that somewhere behind this is the idea that the family of the unlamented JS is going to offer some 'compo'.
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I was listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday when he described JS as "That vile man". Tony Blackburn has also commented on what a creep Savile was, yet both of those have worked at the BBC for years where Savile's exploits were common knowledge and after Savile's death Blackburn was one of those interviewed on Vine's tribute slot where everybody went on about what a great character he was and how he'd done so much for charity. The police were also fully aware of the allegations that had been made over a fifty year period and did sweet FA to stop it. There is a lot of rampant hypocrisy reminiscent of the Catholic Church with their attitude to abuse by there priests, ignore it till it becomes politically expedient to do something - too little too late in other words, and far too late to sort the truth from the fiction.
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>> I was listening to Jeremy Vine yesterday when he described JS as "That vile man".
>> Tony Blackburn has also commented on what a creep Savile was, yet both of those
>> have worked at the BBC for years where Savile's exploits were common knowledge and after
>> Savile's death Blackburn was one of those interviewed on Vine's tribute slot where everybody went
>> on about what a great character he was and how he'd done so much for
>> charity. The police were also fully aware of the allegations that had been made over
>> a fifty year period and did sweet FA to stop it. There is a lot
>> of rampant hypocrisy reminiscent of the Catholic Church with their attitude to abuse by there
>> priests, ignore it till it becomes politically expedient to do something - too little too
>> late in other words, and far too late to sort the truth from the fiction.
>>
>>
>>
+1
Hypocrisy by those who supported Savile when he was alive.
Without them , he would have been exposed.
(If indeed the stories are true. Based on prior experience, probably 50% is not)
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I didn't see any cops roping down in commando style raids - most of the arrests seemed to be made by CID types in suits. Early morning arrests are common in big enquiries - PACE has dictated this really as the Police need to maximise the time people are in custody - highly desirable for a number of reasons for enquiries to be undertaken during "office hours" for a number of reasons, if only for to maximise the availability of sober Solicitors ! I don't remember seeing any camera terams accompanying Officers on these raids ! That dreadful Gadd's drum was probably under observations by hacks for weeks before he was eventually arrested.
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 12 Jan 13 at 13:53
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Some here will have seen the main cartoon in today's comic: old bill using a battering ram to smash down a door behind which there is a cobwebby office with a dead cigar in an ashtray and a lot of horrible shell suits hanging in a wardrobe.
'Groomed the nation' indeed! A lot of old movers, shakers and Savile promoters are protesting too much. Humbugs.
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"The gaffe was picked up by fans on social networking sites such as Twitter."
So they had to try quite hard to find the offending material? Not just just innocently watching the programme?
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Ridiculous.
I remember that episode; what surprised me is that the programme makers bothered immitating Savile since I couldn't see how the children would have the slightest idea who he was.
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It was made 12 years ago, perhaps 5 year olds of the time were aware of him. But I guess his persona was chosen as the brief in making the programme was to create a DJ character for the sketch, and like him or loathe him Jimmy Savile was a pretty distinctive figure on that scene. I can't imagine them doing a take off of Terry Wogan or Gloria Hunniford for that kind of sketch. A lively, colourful, noisy persona was needed in order to create the caricature. Maybe they could have chosen Chris Evans, he might have been more current to the audience then, but still he was only famous in adult/young adult aimed shows. Savile was much more involved in appearances on children's TV.
Knowing what we know now it seems odd. But in 2001? Makes sense.
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I guess I was watching it with the eldest about 7 years ago. And she had no clue who he was then.
So quite how a child now would know is beyond me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 15:56
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The Beeb is going bonkers as well as biased! (Winks!)
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 21 Jan 13 at 17:07
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Broadcaster Stuart Hall has been charged with one offence of rape and 14 offences of indecent assault, Lancashire Police have said. He was arrested on Tuesday after attending a police station by appointment.
The rape is alleged to have been committed in 1976 against a 22-year-old woman.
The indecent assaults are alleged to have taken place between 1967 and 1986 on 10 girls aged between nine and 16.
Hall has been bailed to appear before magistrates in Preston on 7 February.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21154999#
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>> between 1967 and 1986 on 10 girls aged between nine and 16.
Nine? Horrible old brute.
The rape allegation involving a 22 year old woman may not count for much after all this time. But that will, if substantiated.
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More questions about double standards at the Daily Mail. (that supposes that the Mail has standards :))
www.themediablog.co.uk/the-media-blog/2013/01/daily-mail-turns-the-creepiness-up-a-notch.html
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And now the creep is costing me money:
From today's local rag
"A council tax rise which will see people across Norfolk pay about a penny more a day to cover the costs of policing has been agreed, despite an attempt to veto it.
And Norfolk’s first police and crime commissioner said part of the reason extra cash is needed is because the repercussions from the Jimmy Savile allegations has put pressure on the force’s vulnerable people’s unit, with more people reporting abuse."
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>> And now the creep is costing me money:
>>
>> From today's local rag
>>
>>
>> "A council tax rise which will see people across Norfolk pay about a penny more
>> a day to cover the costs of policing has been agreed, despite an attempt to
>> veto it.
>> And Norfolk’s first police and crime commissioner said part of the reason extra cash is
>> needed is because the repercussions from the Jimmy Savile allegations has put pressure on the
>> force’s vulnerable people’s unit, with more people reporting abuse."
>>
>>
They should sue J Saville's estate..
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Surprise surprise www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21440827 . Good publicity from the Beeb for the company doin' the suin'.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 13 Feb 13 at 12:25
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...with a string of sex offences, including raping a child.
Greater Manchester Police said he is also accused of indecently assaulting a child and sexual activity with a child.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21468687#
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Lots of mentions in the media for today's report from Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary on mistakes in cases potentialy involving Savile:
www.hmic.gov.uk/publication/mistakes-were-made/
While appreciating that things might have been done differently most of the allegations were from victims unwilling to actually give statements. At least one was anonymous. Intelligence at the time of some events was not the instant commodity it is now.
Pretty thin evidential gruel. Much hindsight involved.
Almost another facet ot WP's 'Something Unpleasant Going on' thread.
What says the panel?
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Frankly anything - short of murder - that happened 30 odd years ago - and where the alleged assailant is dead- is best left alone. Memory plays tricks after that time.. and what actual purpose is served? (apart from distracting from more recent failures which are too close to home and involve too many people and are ignored)
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I had no problem with Savile until it came out that he was a sex offender.
OTT but watchable telly presenter. Nobody without inside knowledge and/or the benefit of hindsight could have possibly known any different.
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A woman could have made a pretty accurate educated guess DP ;)
Pat
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>> A woman could have made a pretty accurate educated guess DP ;)
That's my point though, Pat. A guess. He was weird and eccentric, but that's hardly a rarity in the showbiz game. Wealth and fame will always attract impressionable young girls. Hence the groupie scene that's been a part of band tours since the year dot, and the fact that Savile, like all ToTP presenters was surrounded by young girls wearing not a lot of clothing. It was outwardly normal.
The man was a criminal, and I'm not defending what he did, but the idea that any more than a handful of insiders would have had any real idea of what he was up to at the time is laughable. There are a heck of a lot of comments being made that definitely benefit from hindsight.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 12 Mar 13 at 16:34
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I do agree DP, the remark was somewhat TIC.
I admit I never thought of him as creepy when I was in my teens, it only came with the benefit of age and experience.
Does that mean there is a benefit to being old?:)
Pat
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I must be old and naive. I never liked JS.. but to suggest I had any idea until last year he was guilty of sex crimes?
Risible.
As for the 1960s.. with a Rolling Stone screwing a young girl patently under 16 and it being front page news.. and no-one cared... does anyone seriously think unsubstantiated allegations against JS would be believed?
As for benefits from being old, Heating Allowance £200pa.. an the warm glow that you really don't care anymore about a bunch of teenage scribblers writing rubbish in the papers.. or muttering journalists going on about cars when it's obvious most of them have as much idea what they are writing about as a walrus reading Enid Blighton.. or Proust...
Harumph.
Last edited by: madf on Tue 12 Mar 13 at 17:23
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>>a walrus reading Enid Blighton
Blyton.
Famous Five are Outraged.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 12 Mar 13 at 17:26
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That's why I always read the Secret Seven...much more risque!
Pat
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>> >>a walrus reading Enid Blighton
>>
>> Blyton.
>>
>> Famous Five are Outraged.
>>
Sorry short term memory loss coupled with vodka...
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Never, just never, apologise for anything vodka related unless it is for a shortage of it.
Drink of the Gods.
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>> It's made of potatoes.
Made from whatever comes to hand I think. Had a tour of Grants at Girvan once. It might have been the vodka spirit that came off just before the stuff that went into hair lacquer...
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One of my kids is a manager in a booze production plant, she would not feed me an alcopop let alone drink one herself, she knows what is in it. :-)
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Years of cigarettes, coffee, vodka & orange - most of the major food groups hit most evenings.
Talk about a balanced diet, its no surprise I'm so damned healthy.
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How about this for a theory though...
Good potatoes - Waitrose
OK potatoes - Sainsburys
"Other" potatoes - Morrisons
Scabby potatoes - corner shop
Really scabby potatoes - Instant mash
Really really scabby potatoes - vodka
Whereas barley y'see...
:-)
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>> Whereas barley y'see...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
Yup, if it is not the best quality it goes for animal feed.
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I was about to come out with a bon mot there, but when I check the quotation it doesn't quite fit - Dr Johnson was talking about oats, not barley - I'll paste it anyway.
Dr (Samuel) Johnson's 18th Century dictionary definition of oats reads "a grain which in England is given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people."
Must fly. The WI beckons.
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You're a member of the Women's Institute?
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>> You're a member of the Women's Institute?
See Vicky Price thread. I don't think they allow chaps. Sometimes they have open meetings when there's an interesting speaker, but the visitors aren't let in until all the aprons and regalia are back in the cupboard:-)
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I spoke to a couple of WI groups once - all that Jerusalem and GStheQ was a bit of a shock following my presentation on Guillotines
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DLT arrested over further claims of sexual offences
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21772616#
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What are "significant" arrests? The prosecution service seem to think the word is worth emphasising.
Are they also making "insignificant" arrests - little unimportant people, hardly worth the cost of the handcuffs, not newsworthy?
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Maybe they think the significant arrests are of people who have actually done something.
Has anybody actually been convicted yet? If they have, I must have missed it.
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>> Maybe they think the significant arrests are of people who have actually done something.
>>
>> Has anybody actually been convicted yet? If they have, I must have missed it.
>>
I will be surprised if there are any convictions#. In my view the CPS are "being seen to do something."
# due to time and lack of real evidence vs hearsay.
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Yes, maybe their only hope is that arriving at the door while the accused is still in his pyjamas, carting him off to HQ, telling him they know everything and hoping he'll crumble and confess like they do on TV.
If so, it doesn't seem to be working.
Perhaps all the attendant house-searching is in the hope of finding self-incriminatory videos.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 14 Mar 13 at 11:51
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>> Yes, maybe their only hope is that arriving at the door while the accused is still in his pyjamas, carting him off to HQ, telling him they know everything and hoping he'll crumble and confess like they do on TV.
>>
>> If so, it doesn't seem to be working.
Well, it wont if their innocent...
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I know it's all a long time ago and people can forget things - but even the dumbest abuser - given all the headlines - has had plenty of time to burn any incriminating evidence.
Which Is I suspect why the CPS gave them all advance warning :-)
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Guidio Fawkes has named him - saying that there is no reason not to only that the papers have chosen not to. Can you see who it is yet ?
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Death - everyone called him that - was a nice harmless slightly nerdish-seeming bloke back then. Did he assault any under-age girls? Not against their will I would surmise.
His problem is that he worked for the Beeb when its suits and staff members like Death were stuffing the disgusting Savile down everyone's throat. Frankly I think that's worse than taking advantage of teenage groupies. But it's a bee I have in my bonnet. Younger people don't see anything wrong with good old Jim apart from his noncing. To me that's pure idiocy.
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Wilfred D'eath has been widely named in the press including pictures and interviews.
But who's the other 82yo featured in today's papers?
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"Can you tell what it is now ?"
Last edited by: R.P. on Sun 31 Mar 13 at 22:02
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>> "Can you tell what it is now ?"
Twigged as I hit te post button. He's 83 now as he marked his birthday yesterday.
Maybe not just a 'roo that was tied down?
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Let's hope it wasn;t two little...you know
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De'ath was interviewed on the R4 Today program, John Humphrys IIRC.
He said words to the effect of 'I was a womaniser in those days, we all were at the beeb'. I noted JH didn't refute it!
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>> Guidio Fawkes has named him - saying that there is no reason not to only
>> that the papers have chosen not to. Can you see who it is yet ?
Tie me kangaroo down, sport.
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This whole thing looks like one gigantic waste of time and money.
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If you closely examined attitudes from 40 years ago in all walks of life you would find things vastly different to now.
In another 40 years those of the present day moral high ground pointing their fingers at now old men might well find fingers being pointed at them.
It was another era, some men were sexual predators and used their positions for advantage, some young women were similarly minded and some no doubt used such dalliances for various reasons, its gone on since time began it always will.
These things have to be looked at with an attitude that prevailed at the time from the man on the Clapham omnibus.
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Oh for heaven's sake. There's nothing new under the sun and this stuff was always widespread and still is. Sometimes people talk about it, sometimes they can't be bothered.
All the variants have always been present. The man on the Clapham omnibus was no saint.
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''The man on the Clapham omnibus was no saint''
Thats my point AC, the man on the omnibus was there in 1973 today and will be in 2053.
The present problem is that 2013 judgment is being used for 1973 behaviour, we have a peculiarly pious present attitude.
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>> we have a peculiarly pious present attitude.
Ah, see what you mean gb, sorry.
I don't have a very pious attitude myself though. Just a bit now and then perhaps. But not about trivial stuff.
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Well according to many sources on google, a 82 year old man with a white beard who is now 83 has been arrested.
So it seems everybody who has ever touched another person is now getting a arrested for it. I just cannot believe so many people who happen to work the BBC are sex offenders of that age. I am amazed poor old Bruce has not been arrested yet, but he must be a bit worried, even though I am sure is 100000% innocent.
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>> Well according to many sources on google, a 82 year old man with a white
>> beard who is now 83 has been arrested.
Having met this 'suspect' on a number of occasions, I have to say he would be amongst the last people I would have expected.
He has always been a total Gentleman, polite, etc.
He would be one of very few, that I would have said would never cheat on his wife, whom he dotes on.
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Much the same view in this household ST - he has been pretty prolific on the TV in Wales in recent years - close links with the country.
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It is not only old men at the BBC. Will this cyclist get the knock on the door in 40 years time for today's indiscretion?
Telegraph link.tinyurl.com/blatpf8
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It has really gone to far, I ended up doing that a few weeks back in a club, it was done in a cheeky way, but when I woke up sober I realised in todays would I could have got arrested for it, and it is not something I will ever do again.
There is a time and place though, if a girl is dancing flirtly right next you and singing along etc that is cheeky but obviously pinching somebody's rear end in a supermarket would get you rightly arrested.
What I can imagine is happening with the Saville stuff, is somebody will phone the place saying a person ask me to sit on his lap when I was 11 the next thing he is arrested 40 years down the line.
The next thing we know, we will have to sign a form before we ever enter any kind of sexual relationship with anybody.
I know this is getting slightly off topic, but what is happening now I fear is being getting arrested for basically flirting with adult women. There is a massive difference between somebody say 14 or 24.
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>> The next thing we know, we will have to sign a form before we ever
>> enter any kind of sexual relationship with anybody.
>>
Yes, I can see that as well.
How can a chap prove that the woman was willing, if sometime after the event, (days, weeks years?) that she claims otherwise?
Reminds me of the old joke where a prostitute claimed rape after a week...
'why has it taken this long to report it' said the old bill?
'why that easy, I've only just found out the cheque bounced....'
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Haha yeah. If this continues half the male population will be locked up or be on the register.
It is all very one sided though, the amount of times I have been grinded or pinched in a club, it is just a bit of fun, but if I tried to do that to a female it would be classed as assault.
I even had a gay man do it once, I wasn't too impressed but it was just a bit of harmless fun, he soon got the message I wasn't interested.
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Not everyone may remember the case of the US male Mormon missionary in this country I think who claimed he had been raped by a bushy-tailed American blonde. I can't remember her name but she was my heroine of the month, and I must say I put him on some kind of pedestal too... Naturally I was intrigued by the mechanics of a woman having sex with an unwilling male partner.
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I was a mere adolescent when that happened....
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>>
>> I can't
>> remember her name but she was my heroine of the month, and I must say
>> I put him on some kind of pedestal too... Naturally I was intrigued by the
>> mechanics of a woman having sex with an unwilling male partner.
Joyce McKinney
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case
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That was the gal Bromptonaut, thanks.
Yee-hah baby!
And what on earth made the geezer run screaming to the authorities and the media? Did he think he would be admired for it back home? Heh heh.
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Just to be a bit po-faced, the McKinney case is remarkable for its uniqueness. Most rape and sexual assault cases are darker and more serious being so to speak the real thing, the other way round genderwise.
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In the interests of science AC...could you be a .....er.....sort of.....willing participant, if say that lady in 'Misery' kidnapped you and wanted her wicked way with you?
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Sadistic slasher type was she? If so not my type Westpig.
We all get more discerning with the passage of time. So do women, alas...
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Funnily enough my BiL mentioned this film when he called a few Saturdays ago -when I was confined to my sick bed with man-flu...
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>when I was confined to my sick bed with man-flu...
Usually, I only succumb to something more severe than a sniffle every couple of years or so. I suspect that most self-respecting bugs don't want to be seen dead in something like me.
When I got rid of a horrible cold a month or so ago I assumed I'd be ok for a while. Not to be.
Since Thursday I've had the same symptoms as the last episode - thick-head, snot for Africa and a cough that feels like broken ribs. This time it's accompanied by aching muscles and joints though. I even get twinges when reaching for a glass.
I'm becoming a southern softie I guess.
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Sorry to hear that Kevin. A friend of mine started like that a few weeks ago.
God rest him...
:-)
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>> Sorry to hear that Kevin. A friend of mine started like that a few weeks
>> ago.
>>
>> God rest him...
>>
>> :-)
Which reminds me of a story...while we're off topic.
comedy-quotes.com/woody-allen/eggs_benedict.html
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>> >> Guidio Fawkes has named him - saying that there is no reason not to
>> only
>> >> that the papers have chosen not to. Can you see who it is yet
>> ?
>> Tie me kangaroo down, sport.
There are moves to make anonymity between arrest and charge the normal process. Follows a Law Commission report on contempt.
A response on behalf of HM Judges was published a week or so ago. Joshua Rozenberg has also written on the subject in the Guardian:
www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/apr/10/secret-arrests-not-answer
The Mail is also trumpeting the 'secret arrests' message with echoes of midnight knocks at the door and people being spitited away.
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Secret arrests will be fun..
Try prosecuting a a paper for running a story about someone detailing all their ill deeds - when under secret arrest.
Would destroy the criminal legal system as she is writ.
"Please your Honour.. we published because the arrest of Joe Bloggs was kept secret..How could we know when we published details of all his many attempted rapes that he had been arrested?"
Last edited by: madf on Tue 16 Apr 13 at 15:45
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Operation Yewtree or Operation Smokescreen? - Manatee
