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Unison calls for sacking of Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson
....that legal advice was now being taken.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15987170
If I was in Unison I would not be happy that funds were being spent on this.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 16 Dec 11 at 00:30
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I'd love to hear Clarkson's views on adulterous reactionary tosspots.
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...I'd love to hear Clarkson's views on adulterous reactionary tosspots...
Good one, although Clarkson would see his residence in a glass house as a qualification to throw stones, not a bar.
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Someone who clearly has never seen an episode of TG before, and therefore doesn't get Clarkson's style of humour.
Prior to this, I suspect she didn't even know who JC was.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 13:08
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It's standard JC fare and I can see the funny side. Not sure airing it in the One Show was a good call though - too early for that kind of satire.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 13:19
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Maybe Clarkson and Prince Philip should have their own TV program.
Id watch it. he he
I can't believe that people get irate about what Clarkson says.
It is all tongue in cheek or do the complainers not watch TG ?
We seem to becoming a nation of Mary Whitehouse's.
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I think the suicide thing was a mite insensitive as well that time of night. He's a (talented) buffoon. He was a cracking writer in Performance Car days, I lapped up every word, I used to read his column in The Times - far too many words and to little substance. A well paid buffoon though with a gold plated pension paid for by er...taxpayers.
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Totally, totally frightening! Well, I'll go to the foot of our stairs...
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The reported comment is very obviously a joke. Jeremy Clarkson has cast himself as a latter-day Alf Garnett, sometimes making a bit of a point about PC but in general underlining the idiocy of extreme reactionary and xenophobic positions.
It must be both satisfying and irksome for Clarkson, a fully paid-up sophisticate and member of the chattering classes, when apparently sane individuals take his carefully-crafted gargoyle persona at face value.
Something analogous happens to Boris Johnson, although in his case there is no 'stage persona' that differs markedly from the real one. Very few comedy impersonators get him remotely right although many try.
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>> The reported comment is very obviously a joke.
Yes, but I suppose not all jokes are suitable for a 7pm 'family' show. I think it would have been ok in the context of a TG programme, but probably not in The One Show. Watching it I felt a bit uneasy.
EDIT: suing is daft
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 13:58
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>> cast himself as a latter-day Alf Garnett
... and on reflection, fallen victim to the enormous, essentially stupid power of the modern media.
What I mean is something like: if the powers that be shower you with countless millions for doing, not without effort, something that is finally quite simple as well as enjoyable, you may perhaps end by being a bit too glib and taking it a bit too easy.
As one much given to both of these things, I can't find it in my heart to be nasty about the enviable Clarkson. I'm a bit of a lefty myself but he wouldn't really want to shoot me. Or anyone probably.
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I've dealt with Unison a few times over the years.
Two things have always stood out.
1. They have an army of representatives who are always in meetings, on the train to London, or otherwise engaged - in that respect they reflect the worst excesses of public service.
2. They have no sense of humour. The slightest indication you are not taking their oh so very important 'issue' seriously falls on very stoney ground.
Putting forward the alternative view is also frowned upon.
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I agree his comments were not suitable for a 7pm programme. But if you invite Clarkson on a programme, the producers must think he'll behave like, well Clarkson. So was this type of comment surprising? Not really.
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I liked D Cameron's quip in the house yesterday, he weas accusing Milliband (E) of not condeming the strike, it went something like:
(to the Labour benches) ... so they are all shouting in unison, or should I say that they are all shouting on behalf of Unison ...
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Just seen a clip on the BBC news - There was a sound-bite from some sour faced woman called Karen Jennings - Deputy leader of UNISON - after listening to her I now think the comments made were very funny.
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I dislike the type of people Clarkson seems to enrage so effortlessly far more than I dislike the man himself.
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Clarkson on any programme is a bit like an elephant on Blue Peter.
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Karen Jennings managed to portray herself to me as a thick, humourless, soulless person who might have been happiest working as a prison guard in a gulag.
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Anybody that takes any notice of Clarkson is a simply a fool. It is his sense of humour while I don't always agree I never take offence of anything he says even if I would find it offensive if anybody else said it.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 15:18
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I found Clarkson hilarious last night - but even more hilarious was the panicked reaction of Matt Baker and Alex Jones being bounced out of their safe little world .......
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Personally I think this is very funny:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qdqsyZ7jQ
But I don't think I'd like to hear it on the One Show (assuming I was forced to watch the twee drivel)
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>> Anybody that takes any notice of Clarkson is simply a fool.
...or they don't know who he is, which is possible.
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Clarkson at his best is performing at a Daily Star level of comedy - uni-dimensional offensive crap, with no word play or real intelligence on display, just feigned anger.
If you want real incisive comedy watch Bill Hicks, Doug Stanhope, George Carlin, etc etc.
TG used to be 50% cars, 50% banter which was tolerable and often funny - now it's 30-70 at best and I can't help myself thinking "Shut the f... up and show us the cars you overpaid streak of curly haired impotence".
Edit: before anyone mentions it, I dont have curly hair ;-)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 15:41
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Link to Daily Mash's take (rude).
tinyurl.com/d62kd6k
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>> Link to Daily Mash's take (rude).
>> tinyurl.com/d62kd6k
Sums it all up rather well, I thought.
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Unison are being a bunch of hypocrites as are all protestors as the man who said:
"
Tories should 'burn in hell for all eternity'
is official Labour candidate for Mayor..
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100115727/ken-livingstone-tories-should-%E2%80%9Cburn-in-hell-for-all-eternity%E2%80%9D/
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Don't get me wrong I do find him funny, but I also know most the time what he says isn't meant to be serious. Hyundai designers eating dog for dinner etc...
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>> Don't get me wrong I do find him funny, but I also know most the
>> time what he says isn't meant to be serious. Hyundai designers eating dog for dinner
>> etc...
Yes, that's probably true for most of us, myself included. But to be fair to the BBC, they accept that not everyone is familiar with his style of humour (of course there will be others who are but just like stirring it up). Jimmy Carr who can be very 'offensive' has been on The One Show but he knows how far he can push it (ie. not very).
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Just listened to some Union woman comparing Clarkson to Gadaffi - really get over it.
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I heard that too..what a plonker!
No one does 'offended' better than a female though:)
Pat
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Jeremy Clarkson has apologised for saying striking public sector workers should be shot, after his remarks were widely condemned.
After 5000 complained. How many jumped on the bandwagon ??
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15993549
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I like JC.
I don't always agree with what he says....but like the fact he is prepared to say it.
Unless someone is grossly offensive, we're supposed to be living in a country of free speech.
Cracking a joke about having people shot, is not in my view grossly offensive...and I think this has just highlighted what po faced humourless clowns some of these Union people are. They need to 'get a life'.
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Probably the same 5000 who complained about Ross and Brand but had never heard the clip.
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>> Don't get me wrong I do find him funny, but I also know most the
>> time what he says isn't meant to be serious. Hyundai designers eating dog for dinner
>> etc...
But they do, surely?
dog is acceptable nosh in Korea. (small d, so as not to upset our own Dog._
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Any legal peeps on here? What law could possibly have been broken? I'm intrigued. He's not been racist or stirred up religious hatred has he? What else is there? It's not illegal to insult anybody is it?
Poor Mr Prentis, he does not have broad shoulders, or any shoulders at all it seems!!
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There's nothing - that would have been the advise that the Unison Politburo would have received and now refuse to discuss. Chucking their members' money down the drain. BBC are giving the story legs - free publicity for the beigness that the One Show stands for. If there was a whiff of actionable material they wouldn't be re-broadcasting it left right and centre. Storm in a tea-cup Unison would be better spending their time on other sorts of PR and turning the other cheek.
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...What law could possibly have been broken?...
None really, inciting murder is an offence, but the comment was clearly fatuous - not to be taken seriously.
It was also sufficiently general - 'striking public servants'.
A comment along the lines of "I think Prentis of Unison should be shot' would be much more risky.
But Clarkson didn't say that, and for the avoidance of doubt, nor am I. :)
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Just to clarify, I though his comments about the train suicide victims was the most dodgy (in the context of the programme), and that was the one they apologised for at the end.
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I agree Focus, this footage will have been examined to the nth degree by the BBC Compliance Unit, there is no way they'd have allowed it to be re-run ad-nausea if there was an issue. Funny how this story has eclipsed the strike maybe that what Ms "Happy" Jennings doesn't like.
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theres 65 million folk in this country, only 5000 complained!
Complaints must be the only area that the "minority" voice is heard and acted on!
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The trouble with union bosses is the same as the trouble with religious fundamentalists: they have absolutely no sense of humour and their world exists in black and white.
I long ago came to the conclusion that Clarkson is an old windbag with very little of substance to say, but I find this latest episode hilarious. As for his apology, I think we know how sincere that was!
Last edited by: FocalPoint on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 19:15
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Clarkson is a windbag. But when you watch him on his programme about Brunel or tracing his family tree he isn't.
I can't believe how thick unison are being over this. JC is a caricature of himself. Humorless plonkers.
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>> Clarkson is a windbag. But when you watch him on his programme about Brunel or
>> tracing his family tree he isn't.
..or a programme about the WW2 heroes in Op Chariot...(which someone on here went to a lot of trouble helping me find it again for which i'm very grateful).
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He can be a good presenter can't he. But he makes money being the Clarkson most people know. If I could make millions pretending to be something I'm not really... would I? Yep.
It was only because of the post about Op Chariot I thought to find it and watch it too. A very good example of JC good work.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 23:27
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Was repeated tonight as part of the R4 six o'clock news. In context it was quite amusing. First he congratulates the strikers; their absence has let the traffic flow. Then 'as this is the BBC and he has to be even handed' he goes off about having them shot.
Not the right show/time of day but he's hardly Ghadaffi.
Unison have some pretty smart lawyers in house; I doubt they needed to consult leading counsel to be told legal proceedings would get a ROLMAO response from the courta.
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Whatever size the Prentis shoulders are he clearly has chips with them!
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>> But they do, surely?
>> dog is acceptable nosh in Korea
80% of dogs in Korea are inbred.
Some of them are in rolls, some in baguettes, ...
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 20:55
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Yeah but the he said something on the lines of "the reason this car was so ugly is because the designer eat dog for breakfast"
Suggesting that the Korean diet made them design ugly cars. He got into trouble for it I seem to remember no matter how funny I did find it as a silly 15 year old.
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I saw him doing his live show in the NEC - attracted a complaint from the nearby Hyundai stand IIRC.
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While I like JC's hatred of all things PC etc, and everyone says "oh that is just JC, you should know what he is like", the fact of the matter is there have recently been some big name sackings in Ross, Brand, Gray and the other guy from Sky.
So either JC is untouchable as he brings a whole load of income for the BBC, or one day he is going to say something that will really step over the line. But until then, he will continue to offend and get away with it.
Bit like Tevez for Man City, an absolute liability at times but also a huge cash asset!
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>> there have recently been some big name sackings in Ross, Brand, Gray and the other guy from Sky.
A little bit different. Ross and Brand phoned Andrew Sachs live on air etc. What JC said was clearly not what he intended anyone to do. As for Gray... he was vile (can I say that?).
Now if I said (and I don't mean this) all Canadian's supporting seal culls should be taken out and executed using wooden clubs in front of the baby seals. Is that a real threat? Would someone think oh heck I'd best stay at home to be safe because Rob might come for me.
I do think JC is a ****** though. And he could be fired etc.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 23:41
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But if JC said what Gray said, would it be a case of "oh thats only JC, what do you expect etc"?
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I don't think so.
JC said they should be shot/executed. The 'they' was not anyone or group in particular - otherwise all 2 million would take a lot of bullets. The thing that JC said that was insensitive was about suicide attempts in front of trains - I cannot forgive that! Seems most have missed that.
Gray on the other hand said inappropriate things to individuals over time in 'private'. Some not so private as he though.
The difference is JC said it publicly as a joke. Gray meant it and said it 'privately'.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Thu 1 Dec 11 at 23:57
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But if JC said what Gray said, would it be a case of "oh thats only JC, what do you expect etc"?
>>
I am surprised that you are equating those other incidents with this one.
The others were targeted at race or individuals. JC's "joke" was targeted at an amorphous group of people.
As for the comment on the railway suicides, it may be considered bad taste by some. But I would be more upset by the selfishness of a relative who commits suicide rather than any jokes people may make about my relative.
On the other hand, crude jokes made recently, by some so called "top" comedians, about living disabled children are in my view completely unacceptable.
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>> A little bit different. Ross and Brand phoned Andrew Sachs live on air etc.
That's not how I remember it (links to terrorflag):
tinyurl.com/7tnc9am
pre-recorded.
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>> Ross and Brand phoned Andrew Sachs live on air etc.
>> That's not how I remember it
It doesn't matter whether they did it live or not, or whether Manuel actually minded, or whether the granddaughter minded or whether she made a good thing out of it.
The fact is that it isn't a joke or prank because there's nothing funny about it or droll like Clarkson's so-called 'outburst'. Where is the joke in saying Tee hee, he done 'er over the back of the sofa, snigger? It's grossly vulgar and cruel in principle to make allegations of that sort on live TV or anywhere else. If anyone said anything like that to me, I might be able to stop short of physical violence but I'm quite good at other sorts of violence.
Certainly I wouldn't want either of those toerags in the sitting room. Brand is essentially boring and Ross a clever man who has sold his soul to the devil for a good price one supposes. But they are excrement.
I don't mean to sound po-faced here. I have been on friendly terms with many who were no better than they ought to have been. Perhaps I'm like that myself. But some things are witty or anyway droll, others are just gross.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 14:57
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That hot dog looks a little under cooked.
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At a GMB Union conference in June 2010, the Labour Leadership candidates were answering questions. Candidate John McDonnell said that if he could go back in time, he would assassinate Margaret Thatcher - to huge applause from the conference delegates.
Here is the BBC clip from Newsnight.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX9Pn4-mWmU
Hypocrites!
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 01:04
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Lefties have never had a sense of humour...:-))
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My mum hates Clarkson,. I had to pick myself up off the floor tonight when she said he's right in what he's said.
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I can't stand Clarkson either. He's insufferably self centred. I remember his episode of Who do You Think You Are? where he seemed obsessed with the question of what happened to the family business and where did the money go, to the exclusion of everything else. A rags to riches and back to rags story and, ironically for Clarkson, probably one of the first court cases where a manufacturer ended up in court for polluting the environment. An interesting story (and quite watchable when Clarkson was off screen) but overall one of the least interesting of the series.
www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/jeremy-clarkson.shtml
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Top Gear mode JC is in character, its a bit like critisising Barry Humphreys for something Dame Edna says ...
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"Who Do You Think You Are" - great luvvie tests in that which are usually a "fail"
1. Robert Lindsay discovered an unknown relative who was medalled in WW1 - In his faux posh accent as quick as a flash asked "Was he an Officer" - "no a Private" says the researcher deflating his ridiculous balloon....
2. Neil Kinnock on the Welsh version (Coming Home) the other night on discovering an uncle who died in October 1918 - " How sad, on the last day of the war ?" Researcher "....er no, the last day of the war was on November 11th"
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Britain has become. among other things, a nation of hysterical, bleating, whinging, emotionally incontinent simpletons who need to take a serious look at themselves.
Clarkson is a TV comic who made a joke - anybody who doesn't think he's funny needs to file him with Benny Hill and Colin Crompton.
A nit from the British Secular Society was on the wireless this morning, waging a campaign against prayers at council meetings in Bideford (which the council has voted on, by the way).
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-15973327
It's a breach of human rights, apparently, and they are going to the High Court. I have no adequate words to say how infantile I find this kind of mewling.
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Heard the thing about Council and prayers on the radio and had same thought as Manatee.
If standing orders said 'no pray no speak at meeting' Councillor Bone would have a point. If he can absent himself or stay silient then he should respect the vuews of others.
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Surely the best Who Do You Think You Are was this one? Well, it raised the corners of my surly mouth briefly.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65QRaR16io
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"BBC Audience Services said the Corporation had received 21,335 complaints as of 09:30 GMT. "
How many bored holier types are there out there ?
He got his publicity and these people keep it going.
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And He'll be crying all the way to the bank...
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Same old story.
Clarkson makes a quip - and immediately the self righteous brigade force themselves to be offended.
It was so obviously meant to cause this sort of reaction I can't believe that the pathetic little lambs at unison even fell for it!
JC had a new DVD out and TG is back on over xmas - the publicity for these is now guaranteed!
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>> "BBC Audience Services said the Corporation had received 21,335 complaints as of 09:30 GMT. "
>>
Didnt know that many people watched the one show.
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Maybe they're all Unison members....
It's so easy now, using Farsebook, to rig up a mass movement.
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Part of the reason for the number of complaints is (IMHO) the way it's been reported - a bald statememnt that Jezza said the srtikers should be shot.
In context it was a satirical counter 'even handed 'cos I'm on the Beeb' to comments about the traffic. The Guardian certainly didn't report the whole exchange (which sounds quite different to the newsworthy bit being quoted verbatim).
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I wonder what JCs colleague Richard Hammond made of his remark. Considering the amount of praise he gave after his near fatal crash on TG to the list of public servants who rescued him, transported him and fixed him to live another day.
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...the list of public servants who rescued him, transported him and fixed him to live another day...
Good thing for Hammond he didn't crash on a strike day.
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>> praise he gave after his near fatal crash on TG to the list of public
>> servants who rescued him, transported him and fixed him to live another day.
The air ambulance is a charity, not public servants.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 16:43
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I was encompassing the whole lot. If you wanted a break down to the endth degree then you are pretty pedantic.
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You can praise someone and hold them in high esteem in their chosen role, but that does not mean that they have realistic pension expectations!
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>> I was encompassing the whole lot. If you wanted a break down to the endth
>> degree then you are pretty pedantic.
Not really it was a perfect reply to your original pedantic statement.
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According to The Times (according to another newspaper that is not liked on here!) the producers of the show agreed before the show that Clarkson should make an outrageous statement which was obviously not meant to be taken seriously about the strikers to be amusing.
What I had also not realised (not having seen the show itself) was that he started by "praising" the strikers (London free of traffic, restaurants empty etc - these are daft statements as well!) and then said "that in the interests of BBC impartiality" (or words to that effect) he had better say something against the strikers. Then came the shot/execute bit.
How anyone could take that seriously, I don't know. Obviously a "Clarksonism" of which there are too many to quote.
Anyway, the protestors won't get anywhere with their complaints. I've written many complaints about his rudeness to caravanners and got nowhere. I even threatened to get a hit squad to deal with Jeremy if he was rude about caravanners again but he didn't take it seriously and blew up a caravan the next week. Thank God I didn't use a Vectra to tow the van, otherwise I would have been really angry.
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MR ECS
Hammond giggled.
a. Because he has a sense of humour
b. Because he realised it was Clarkson being Clarkson and earning another few quid being outrageous as he is expected to be.
Last edited by: PhilW on Fri 2 Dec 11 at 20:10
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Maybe a little insensitive but I've heard many people saying similar over the years, just not in the telly or in print.
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>> Maybe a little insensitive but I've heard many people saying similar over the years, just
>> not in the telly or in print.
JC is 100% correct.
Over and above the inconvenience factor, which when a life has just ended some would say should be a secondary worry. I don't.
Think about the poor sods who have to walk down the track with bin bags picking things up where nothing is bigger than a side plate and most things are finger nail sized; the train driver as already highlighted; the commuter further down the platform showered in unspeakable items.
I make no apologies for having managed to wriggle out of that job in my 30 years service...but it was a close run thing a couple of times...and I had to hear other people's tales about it.
I cast no aspersions on those in really difficult places who feel suicide is the only option, but I do think there are ways of achieving it that don't horrify the hell out of anyone else.
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>> He doesn`t learn!!!
Jeremy Clarkson doesn't hesitate to rush in where angels fear to tread. But he is perfectly right to say that throwing yourself in front of a train is an extremely inconsiderate way of ending it all, costing the taxpayer thousands, traumatizing the driver and perhaps others and making a frightful mess.
Looks to me as if train suicide, like self-immolation, has a compulsive component, the suicide finally succumbing to an old and familiar impulse. It's a terrible thing, as Clarkson acknowledged. But why do activists imagine that open, perhaps vulgar, discussion of the effect such suicides have on a local level must be especially distressing to 'those who have lost loved ones to suicide' or 'who have contemplated suicide'? And why is it supposed to be in such bad taste?
For an example of really bad taste, you need look no further than a train suicide. Talking about it is negligible compared to doing it.
And what adult beyond the age of 40 has never 'contemplated suicide'? Many, like me, must have done so often, although perhaps not very seriously.
Seems to me some of those who work for charities or who campaign for things want to monopolize the subject and allow no outsider to comment. They want to control the very terms in which things are discussed. While they may have some expertise and should be given a hearing, this possessive attitude to things like suicide, disability, learning difficulties etc. is both deeply stupid and doomed to failure. These carphounds want to introduce 'thoughtcrime' through the back door by posing as super-sensitive on behalf of their clients.
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Anyone who feel that sensitive about suicide should sit down with a nice bottle of beer:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-15982477
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Im sure many will not agree, but much truth in your post there AC......
IMHO there are 2 extremes of suicide - Im talking depression here, not wanting to end it due to physical illness - at one end, the 'blaze of glory' type they are the train jumpers, car into wall at high speed etc, and at the other end, are the people who just want to slip away.
The other thing many people dont seem to realise (so called experts included) is that depression can be hidden.
Those suffering with depression, can either show it, or maybe more dangerously, hide it.
There maybe no apparent reason for that person to be depressed, but in a worst case, that person can go so far down their private black hole, to be unable to climb back up.
Committing suicide IS bad taste, but when you feel really down, at the end of your tether, then common sense does leave you.
If you (and your family) are lucky, then common sense returns before its to late.
If not..................
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The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation.
- Henry David Thoreau
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>> If you (and your family) are lucky, then common sense returns before its to late.
>> If not..................
Yes st, I think that is about the size of it with many cases of depression-related suicide and 'near-suicide'.
I had a friend, a doctor and really pretty mad, who committed suicide many years ago. He left a note describing in non-psychiatric terms what was making him do it: a pretty clear case of what was then called manic-depressive psychosis. Being a doctor he did it tidily with barbiturates.
Adolescence is a danger period. People of that age are unstable and impulsive, with their hormones in uproar and often on abrasive terms with their nearest and dearest. Those sort of cases really make you want to cry. You need to keep an eye on people between nine and 20 or so. Stay in touch with them and try to divine what is going on in their school and university lives. If your child suicided you would never be able to forgive yourself whatever the circumstances.
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>>The other thing many people dont seem to realise (so called experts included) is that depression can be hidden.
>>Those suffering with depression, can either show it, or maybe more dangerously, hide it.
>>There maybe no apparent reason for that person to be depressed, but in a worst case, that person can go so far down their private black hole, to be unable to climb back up.
I have been exposed to an awful lot of people taking their own lives.
Quite a few years ago, a few years apart , two guys I worked with ended their lives but we always thought neither were fully balanced personalities and then tended to for get about it.
Ten years ago a guy I had known and worked with for years did a 10 floor jump. we were at a loss to understand why when married, two children , well paid.... and still do not know why.
That really jolted 100s of friends around the world.
More recently for the first time I attended a scene where they guy only survived his burns for 24hours It is uncertain if this was the intention. I did not know him but yet another jolt.
A woman neighbour a few doors away hanged herself after Christmas due to her husbands affair which at least seemed sort of just about understandable.
This year a long serving ex soldier again with a wife and youg children went. He had seen more war and nasties than I can imagine and had to adapt to civies. We knew him and all his family well so are still bemused.
All that and very regular press reports as Surbiton station and near by sites are regularly in the news.
I can say how sad it is (in the traditional sense) but life goes on.
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PHILW,
No need to shout oldboy, I'm not mutton.
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Really Mr Ecs, I must protest on behalf of my fellow age-related slight-hearing-impairment sufferers. The use of Cockney rhyming slang to name a most distressing affliction can only cause widespread distress to many who are verging on middle age.
EH? WHAT WAS THAT? (Sorry, sorry, I thought you were in the other room and had said something. Must be the tinnitus...)
:o}
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..........Mutt & Jeff, not mutton!
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Some bits of the media saying that Clarkson has lost the plot due to the breakdown of his marriage.
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I think that suicide is dreadful for those left behind. It is a very selfish act - but then - as they used to say 'when the balance of the mind is disturbed' a man or woman can do anything.
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>> I think that suicide is dreadful for those left behind. It is a very selfish
>> act - but then - as they used to say 'when the balance of the
>> mind is disturbed' a man or woman can do anything.
>>
It is a very selfish act.
But, unless you have been deep within your own black hole, it is difficult - nay, impossible to really understand what drives the thoughts. In fact even then, Im not really sure it is 'understandable'.
When you reach that point (deciding on suicide), its like reaching a moment of clarity.
You KNOW there is only one way to resolve the issues, that have created the black hole, in which you're sat. Its not an easy decision to make - and of course it is never the correct decision.
Having reached that point, depending much upon the method one choices, one either leaves Hell on Earth for those left behind, OR you wake up feeling an idiot. (either 'Why did I do that?' or 'How did I get that wrong?')
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 9 Dec 11 at 00:31
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>> breakdown of his marriage.
Has it broken down? Fair play to him then, I'd be a bit unstable if my wife was off over the horizon with the Aston Martin AND the Caterham.
Sheesh, poor bloke...
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The Aston Martin would break down before the marriage.
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>> Mutt & Jeff, not mutton!
There speaks a pedant slow to catch up with the twists and turns of a living tongue.
Mutton is correct, just as Gregory is correct for cheque and apples perfectly OK for stairs.
You'd look a right mug down at the old Bull & Bush, Roger. Or rather, you'd look a right Toby dahn the Hindu...
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mutt and Jeff is NEVER said in full in cockney slang, its always the first part, BUT its not Mutton, its Mutt'n, because its not Mutt and Jeff its Mutt 'n Jeff. No cockney ever uses the word "and" its always a 'n
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 4 Dec 11 at 15:42
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OFFS Zeddo. Mutt'n is pronounced exactly the same as mutton.
Of course we all have our hidden pedant side ready to leap out and bite us in the Khyber. Even you it seems.
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Ah now, if you listened to the Archers you'd know everything about mutton y'see.
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>> OFFS Zeddo. Mutt'n is pronounced exactly the same as mutton.
>>
>> Of course we all have our hidden pedant side ready to leap out and bite
>> us in the Khyber. Even you it seems.
Not its not you jumped up posh west londoner.
Mutton has one more syllable in it than mutt'n, they are clearly and distinctly different.
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Even posh west londoners pronounce them both as mutt'n. The only difference between my pronunciation and a hard-core Cockney one it that the t sound is not swallowed quite to the same extent, although it is swallowed. A proper Cockney, or anyway working-class person with a London accent, would swallow it completely and pronounce the word something like 'Mah'n'. But the big difference is the sharper vowel sound. There are always two syllables, indicated in the 'demotic' spelling by the apostrophe.
Only an actor or foreigner would pronounce the t sound and the o sound in 'mutton' clearly and (as it were) correctly...
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 4 Dec 11 at 16:42
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You have a fine ear for accent AC. Despite my long exile In East Anglia I soon relapse into cockney after a few hours in Manor Park. Mah'n is indeed what is frequently dressed as lamb.
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Doesn't explain why they often drive convertibles though.
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...I soon relapse into cockney after a few hours in Manor Park...
You'd be one of the few talking cockney there nowadays.
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dear mr ecs, (he whispered)
look what you've started! - and all because of a slight typo by someone who is totally deaf (Mutt? Jeff? Mutton? Geoff? Mutton and Geoff? Mutt'n Jeff, Mutt and Jeff) in my left lughole and had had a few glasses of the red stuff making me totally deaf to mrs w (I always whisper her name.)
Are we getting a little thread drift here???
Fill double V (sorry, that V, or was it a W? was a little loud)
Think I might have got a few commas in the wrong places also (or to, or too)
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Not true
Most of my wife's extensive family live there
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Fine ear or not, what AC has clearly failed to recognise and listen to is the poshed-up English of Zero's Surrey - a serious shortcoming!
As regards Cockney and a lot of London-area "down-market" speech, the technical description of "swallowing" a consonant is "glottal stop", heard in not only in the middle of words like "mutton" and "bottle", but at the end of words like "what" and "not".
Then there is the "th" sound pronounced like "v" in "with" etc. And don't get me started on vowels.
Cockney rhyming slang has fascinated me for years. Some of it has remained unchanged for years, like "apples" for "stairs", "butcher's" for "look" (as in "butcher's hook"), "trouble" for "wife" (as in "trouble and strife"), "adam" for "believe" (as in "Adam and Eve") and "barnet" for "hair" (as in "Barnet Fair" - how long is it since there was one of these?)
Some of it is obviously much more recent, like "ruby" for "curry" (as in "Ruby Murray"), or "alans" for "knickers" (as in "Alan Whicker"). All of it is totally mystifying to the outsider, which was presumably the purpose of its invention by the criminal underworld of early nineteenth century London's East End, or so it is thought.
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How could you FP? I am trying to work.
What Zero calls posh west london, a sort of slightly slovenly 'received English' pronunciation, does pronounce the word 'mutt'n' without a full glottal stop, but the t sound nevertheless substantially 'swallowed'. The apostrophe in this case expresses the mutilation of the o sound into a sort of gasp or grunt, a crucial feature of English demotic pronunciation - in all classes - which foreigners find extremely difficult, and which often gives them away.
Even an old-fashioned or upper-class or would-be upper-class person would pronounce the o in mutton as a sort of grunt. But the cut-glass speaker or actor might pronounce the t clearly, e.g.: muttern or muttuhn. We are sloppier in West London.
Only a Nigerian or Hungarian (for examples) would pronounce the o as a proper o.
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Far be it from me to distract you yet again, AC.
"...the mutilation of the o sound into a sort of gasp or grunt, a crucial feature of English demotic pronunciation - in all classes - which foreigners find extremely difficult..."
Yes, well spotted. The vowel sound in question is sometimes referred to by linguists as the "neutral" vowel, close to the vowel sound in the word "the" as pronounced even by the posh. It is very frequent in English and a problem for foreigners because it's represented in spelling by almost any vowel. It's not too far removed from the French vowel sound in "le", though here it is more "coloured" and lengthened.
The International Phonetic Alphabet symbol for this sound is ǝ.
OK, back to work!
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I don't lapse into rhyming slang very much (or walk around with my thumbs stuck behind my braces).
I certainly would avoid it completely at formal occasions. These are the ones where you are dressed in your best whistle, with a plain white dickie and a sober peckham. And proper how do yer dos on your plates (not trainers). Most likely I'd wear a titfer to cover up my unruly barnet as well.
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>> OK, back to work!
I got a ghastly feeling you were a linguist straight away. Technically of course I can only defer, with what grace I can muster.
(faaaahck)
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I wasn't trying to "pull rank", AC - I just find the whole area fascinating, have done for a long time. The stuff you came up with was really good and I got a bit carried away. I don't get the chance to talk about it very often in the normal run of things. (Does that make me some kind of ghastly nerd? - Probably.)
I studied a lot of language stuff as part of an English degree course at University College London. The Modern English Grammar and Structure option had a large helping of Phonetics, among other things. Great stuff!
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>> I wasn't trying to "pull rank",
I didn't think you were FP. You were perfectly polite and clearly posting out of interest. You have been misled by clumsy badinage on my part.
It must be more than apparent that I too take a detailed interest in areas of this sort, in my case though without the frame of an academic discipline. But believe me, I understood you and wasn't offended or miffed in the slightest.
Anyway, what I really should have put was 'faaaah'!' I had forgotten the terminal glottal stop.
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When I have a cold I lose the accent for some unknown reason.
The words the,three ,think or thirtythree are awkward to pronounce for me.
Asking a Brit to say Scheveningen.>)
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>> Asking a Brit to say Scheveningen.>)
Skhuhv-enninguhn? No more difficult than Schimmelpenninck (Skhummelpenninck).
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Clarkson vs Unison ? - Lygonos
