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Continuing debate
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 May 17 at 10:06
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It's the end of the world [as we know it] and I feel fine :o
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIdPPVkkHYs
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Having looked back to see what I thought a week or so after the referendum, I don't think I can improve on it much, even with hindsight -
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=22766&m=505570
Article 50 was designed never to be used, designed so that nobody would want use it. That probably seemed like a good idea at the time; members who are unhappy with a club should use their votes at the AGM, and not use the threat of resignation to bypass the democratic process.
Having failed to agree anything (the EU's position under Article 50 precluding it, and the UK government's position involved having its head up its fundament) we are almost certainly in a much weaker position than we were on 1 July last year. We have committed to leaving with nothing in the bank, our leverage being the extent to which the EU would rather not end up with WTO terms. We will now find out what that extent is.
I went to a talk at the OU last night
www.open.ac.uk/research/main/news/what-does-brexit-tell-us-about-britain
which didn't actually shed much light IMO - in fairness it's difficult to imagine anything that has not already been said by somebody. There was a handful of themes that stuck.
One is that the effects on EU migrants living here are very uncertain. Some will be in a much better position than others to obtain permanent leave to remain; unless there is a genera[ amnesty then there will be some very hard cases. There is also likely to be a rush to get in before the bar drops. Apparently nobody knows how many there are - estimates vary betweem 1.4 million and 5 million. Probably about 3m. There are fewer UK nationals living elsewhere in the EEU - probably between 1m and 1.5m.
There was quite a bit about the swing between representative democracy and direct democracy. Research in this context suggests suggests >70% favour a representative one, implying they would rather not have had a referendum at all and probably don't wnat another one.
Although 52% voted leave, a much higher number would have agreed that the EU is not fit for purpose and should be reformed, which was not on the ballot paper. Equally, many who voted leave would also rather have voted for a reformed EU.
The government Brexit White Paper goo.gl/frMxW4 , under the heading of Public and Parliamentary Involvement and Scrutiny, starts with the sentence -
"We will continue to build a national consensus around our negotiating position by listening and talking to as many organisations, companies and institutions as possible."
Spot who's missing. The mass of people are not intended to have a direct say in this, until the general election of course.
It also says -
"To enable the Government to achieve the best outcome in the negotiations, we will need to keep our positions closely held and will need at times to be careful about the commentary we make public. Our fundamental responsibility to the people of the UK is to ensure that we secure the very best deal possible from the negotiations. We will, however, ensure that the UK Parliament receives at least as much information as that received by members of the European Parliament..
This sounds sensible but is utterly unachievable. They may as well have public meetings, with 27 countries and 600 MPs leaking like sieves and briefing against their opponents.
I have not changed my view that we have created a very messy problem. Good outcomes may be possible, but we might not be capable of getting there.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 29 Mar 17 at 12:54
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That's a good read Manatee, thanks. I can see bits which "resonate" with my own line of thinking.
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>> I have not changed my view that we have created a very messy problem. Good outcomes may >> be possible, but we might not be capable of getting there.
Pretty much sums mine up as well. Seems like a lot of work, upheaval and risk to end up at best where we are now, and at worst, significantly worse off. In the interim, the uncertainty can do nothing other than damage.
I have tried to keep emotion out of it, but I struggle. At the risk of sounding like a lefty traitor, I am frankly embarrassed at the image of this country that Brexit projects to the world. While I reject the silly Remain argument that Leavers are all racist or stupid, it is telling that among the most vocal foreign political advocates for Brexit were Le Pen, Wilders and Trump. I think we are better than that as a country. We have to be.
I also feel bad for my kids that the opportunity and freedom I have enjoyed to travel and work anywhere in Europe with no paperwork, cost or hindrance will be denied to them. Assuming free movement is the unmovable red line that it is being touted as. The whole thing feels like the opposite direction to the way we should be going.
But this is only my view. I guess we will need to see where we end up in a few years. But end up is the right term. I do not see our immediate destiny as being in our hands right now.
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>>
>> But this is only my view.
Actually it's pretty much my view too. Too much risked for a great deal of uncertainty and vague ideas of "taking back control". A sad day for the UK.
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>> >>
>> >> But this is only my view.
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>> Actually it's pretty much my view too.
>>
Not so much mine, I voted remain though accept the decision and now think that we should get on with it as fast as we can. I also reckon that Brexit projects Britain as free thinking, in control of our own destiny. On balance I think it will strengthen our reputation globally.
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The Government White Paper has a typo four lines in.... Unless having the 'nest' intelligence services is a civil service term I'm not familiar with.. :-)
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Feeling elated as article 50 is finally served. With all pro-EU sentiment I had a doubt whether it would be triggered at all by March. I think from April it would require all EU members to agree if any member wants to quit.
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The Beeb was on full-on "what will happen to this business with E.U. employees?" this morning on Breakfast.
My take on this is that IF the employee is here legally, is properly employed in a job for which there is no suitable, or available Briton, is paying all their taxes, and has no criminal record, by all means welcome them, SUBJECT to a renewable work visa.
If the employee wishes to remain permanently, he/she should become a naturalised British citizen.
(I hear that this is an expensive road to take - it should be at a reasonable cost, perhaps with a refundable deposit of say, £500, to deter time-wasters).
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>> what will happen to this business with E.U. employees?
In all likelihood existing EU migrants will settle here and we might see sudden influx of EU migrants until the formal exit from EU.
My take on this one that, on principle, we should treat all non-UK citizens in same manner - no preference on whether migrant is from EU or non-EU.
I would love to see a rule where only British citizens can buy properties in UK. That will reduce house price to a great extent.
Last edited by: movilogo on Wed 29 Mar 17 at 16:49
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As an immigrant yourself, are you really comfortable with this position where you are seemingly desperate to yank the drawbridge up to stop anybody following the same route as you?
Presumably this can be for no moral objection, simply that you don't want others to share in the same stuff in which you are already sharing?
Its not very cool, is it. It is so hypocritical that your usage of the word "we" really irritates me.
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I would like to see all those already here and working allowed to stay whether EU or Non EU.
I agree we should treat them all the same but I cannot agree with you Movilogo about only allowing British citizens to buy a house.
Why shouldn't anyone be allowed to prosper from hard work whatever their nationality?
I presume you are a British Citizen?
Pat
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So Article 50 has been triggered today.
Lets hope it works out for the British.
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>> So Article 50 has been triggered today.
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>> Lets hope it works out for the British.
Where are you from then?
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I was born and are from the East Riding of Yorkshire.
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>> I was born and are from the East Riding of Yorkshire.
Then you can't refer to "The British" as though they are a third party.
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Fluffy stop sounding confusing.You are British born we don't know yet how it will affect us.We have to wait and see.
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The Great Repeal Bill has just been introduced into the House of Commons.
EU law is going to be incorporated into UK law.
Then the decision will be made what EU laws will be abolished or changed or reformed.
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>> I would love to see a rule where only British citizens can buy properties in
>> UK. That will reduce house price to a great extent.
I think you didn't express yourself very well there. What I think you meant was only those resident in the UK should be allowed to buy property here, for that would help lower house price inflation caused by overseas investors inflating the market.
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>> As an immigrant yourself, are you really comfortable
I came to UK via work permit and point based immigration route. Then obtained residency and citizenship after 5-6 years. I wanted to say everyone (who is coming outside of UK) should follow same route.
>> that I think you meant was only those resident in the UK should be allowed to buy property here
Correct - citizens and residents. But not for people from other countries just buying properties in UK purely for investment purpose.
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>> citizens and residents. But not for people from other countries just buying properties in UK purely for investment purpose.
So may I own property in the UK according to your rules?
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Only them people born in Yorkshire should be able to buy t'ouses in Yorkshire
Discuss
Tha knows
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I agree, Leggy. It might keep the b*****s over on the dark side :-)
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>> But not for people from other countries just buying properties in UK purely for investment purpose.
Would you require all the UK Residents to sell their holiday homes in Spain, France and/or wherever?
What about people abroad buying a house for their student child to live in while studying in the UK?
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I drove to Edingburgh last week for renewal of my Dutch passport.It was either London or Edingburh so we stayed a few days near the yacht Brittania.
Passport is for ten years.
I am 67 had no vote in the referendum after 50 years in the U.K.I feel more for the younger generation Europe was their future with Britain part of it.
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Many apologies for thread drift... personally I would never buy a second home abroad, even if I was stinking rich. I do more than my fair share of overseas holiday travel, and the idea of going back to the same old place doesn't appeal. Ive got a few friends with swanky homes in Ibiza, mainland Spain, France etc and returning to the same place would bore me rigid.
We had 4 weeks in a small place at Moraira on the Costa Blanca earlier this year, and just rebooked for 6 next year, but every day ( I mean every day) we set off along the coast or inland to discover new places.
Maybe if I were expecting massive capital appreciation and it was a purely financial decision my viewpoint would be different. I just like to visit different places and if I had a home overseas I would become complacent.
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Anybody who is rich can do what they like.You only have to look in London how many properties are owned by foreigners.
I couldn't care less really.Money talks always has done.
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>> >> But not for people from other countries just buying properties in UK purely for
>> investment purpose.
>>
>> Would you require all the UK Residents to sell their holiday homes in Spain, France
>> and/or wherever?
Some countries (outside the EU) forbid ownership of houses by non residents or domiciles. Its not an unreasonable position.
>> What about people abroad buying a house for their student child to live in while
>> studying in the UK?
What about them? they can rent.
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>> Correct - citizens and residents. But not for people from other countries just buying properties
>> in UK purely for investment purpose.
Maybe with the pressure on accommodation in London which is driving prices we should consider doing what Vancouver has done - taxing empty properties based on value:
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/17/vancouver-empty-homes-tax
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I think we already do. Council tax is payable on empty properties.
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Council tax is nothing compared to what Vancouver is proposing though. I'm sure the billionaires who snap up properties in London just as an investment have no problem paying the council tax on them.
This tax would make sure that little gets left unoccupied.
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>> I'm sure the billionaires who snap up properties in London just as an investment have no problem paying the council tax on them.
>>
Agreed, a million pound house will appreciate at perhaps £15k per month, the council tax is peanuts ...
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39439829
Red faced buffoon has lived in Spain for 14 years and is "not very happy about the immigration we're having"
Even Newsthump couldn't make that one up
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Ref: red faced buffoon...
Make it up? Surely we have examples of exactly that in here?
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Interesting first response form Donald Tusk
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-39454447
My initial feeling is that the EU have a far better hand than we do. I do hope the headmistress is a good poker player.
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There is 12 thousand EU laws that will be incorporated into UK law.
As a country where do we start.
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There are nine-million bicycles in Beijing.
That's a fact,
It's a thing we can't deny.
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By tearing most of them up. And two fingers to any £bn 'fee' we are asked to pay.
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We have an opportunity to create an economy that is truly global.
Most EU laws are regulatory and restrictive in their practices anyway.
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I have always thought that it should not really matter whether we were in or out of the EU. The markets will find equilibrium because the necessary degrees of freedom (relative interest rates and exchange rates) are there to enable it.
If we do end up substantially worse off, it will be down to the ineffectiveness of negotiations, and unfortunately that is looking like a possibility.
An aspect of this about which less has been said [than has about those with the EU] is the negotiation of trade agreements with rest-of-the-world countries.
UK and the EU have to some extent got each other in a mutual knacker grip and I am still hopeful that that will work out equitably, although I suppose May could balls that up with her pompous perorations. She does love the sound of her own voice.
I am actually less sanguine about negotiations elsewhere. We can probably roll over a few small countries but the ones that matter are the big ones. Now that we really need them, the USA for example may well think it can hold us to something even worse than TTIP.
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>> Article 50: Thank you to everyone who made this happen.
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMXsClo0V9E&feature=em-subs_digest
>>
Yes, all built on lies, but never mind eh, like the idiot woman who admitted on TV to voting for Brexit because of straight bananas or the bloke who said it would help keep the Muslims out!
On Question Time last week some of the discussion centred around funding for the NHS because there were claims that hip and knee ops would be rationed to concentrate on cancer treatments and A&E.
Some wag in the audience pointed out that all of the discussions were moot because now we were leaving the EU there would be £350m a week more in the kitty for the NHS! Oh, wait, they didn't lie did they!?
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>> I think its now fairly clear that Turkey joining the EU is becoming more and
>> more distant
Was it ever anything other than distant? Greece and Cyprus were both likely to veto. To which the Brexiteers responded with another lie; Turkey has offices in the Commission so they're already in. Turkey of course became an associate member while De Gaulle was still saying Non to UK.
One or two other things listed as Remain lies could yet come to pass. Brexit is certainly a threat to the stability of the NI process.
And I suspect the irony of comments about peace in Europe and Lord Howard's sabre rattling is lost on Movilogo.
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Once the Brexit talks are finished I presume there will be a vote in the House of Parliament to ratify the result.
Will the British people get a say on the Brexit talk results.
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They already had their say, it's the job of the democratically elected representatives to implement it.
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As the protracted wranglings ("negotiations") will essentially be carried out in public, with 27 countries leaking away, and chewed over endlessly by the media it will be one long opinion poll.
The White Paper did also blether a bit about consultation.
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We are leaving the EU in two years time, and have handed in our notice. The government will negotiate for the best deal they can get, and that's it.
If the government so lost support that it had to resign then a new government would have to decide what to do. I don't see how anyone else could get any better terms.
There's nothing to consult about.
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From the BBC as two people were removed from an Easyjet flight.......
"A spokesperson for the Civil Aviation Authority said the rights of passengers denied boarding, including overbooking, were protected under European law.
"Passengers are entitled to a minimum level of compensation, and must be offered an alternative flight, or 're-route', at the earliest opportunity or at a date that suits you, or offered a full refund, if the passenger no longer wants to fly."
I wonder how that'll work in the future. Still, price worth paying and all that.
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>> I wonder how that'll work in the future. Still, price worth paying and all that.
>>
Most people are not frequent flying international jet setters and only use charter flights if at all. I believe Blackpool is popular. They will not care. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 17 Apr 17 at 16:30
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> Most people are not frequent flying international jet setters and only use charter flights if
>> at all. I believe Blackpool is popular. They will not care. :-)
>>
DfT stats say 52% of the UK adult population haven't flown in the last 12 months and about a quarter have taken one flight.
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And in the last 5 years? Or the next?
Though ON is quite correct. Most people will not care.
Until it happens to them.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 17 Apr 17 at 17:10
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Its hard to say of course if it's the same proportion that fly the same amount each year. All I'm saying is that it's pretty much the same figures each year, just over half haven't taken a flight in the past 12 months.
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"Though ON is quite correct. Most people will not care.
Until it happens to them."
It happened to us a couple of years ago when we were leaving Moscow airport - and a most pleasant experience it was too.
We arrived at the airport after 2+hrs of Moscow traffic with only a short time to go before boarding was due to close. I was suffering the ravages of pukh and becoming rattier because there wouldn't be enough time to suss out the cheap vodka. The airline was BA and, on arrival at the desk, we learned that they needed 10 volunteers to wait the couple of hours before the next flight; the incentive was £125 each and use of the first-class lounge (showers, food, drink, relaxation etc) - so my wife & I bit. It turned out to be a good decision.
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Oops - sorry, I see there's now a separate thread dealing specifically with this.
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>> Most people are not frequent flying international jet setters and only use charter flights if
>> at all.
And the number will decrease now that brexit has devalued the pound, they get less foreign currency, and the flights are more brexspensive.
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>> And the number will decrease now that brexit has devalued the pound, they get less
>> foreign currency, and the flights are more brexspensive.
>>
And many short haul holiday destinations are being shunned for safety reasons.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 08:59
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Yep, so the terrorists are winning... :-( But also foreign exchange rates since the BREXIT vore have also made going and being abroad quite a bit more expensive.
I'm off to Egypt in a couple of weeks. Cheap cheap deal - flight was about £250, all inclusive beach hotel £19 a night (though food slightly dodgy based on last year's experience there). That's a single person price, as SWMBO is still working and doesn't have any holiday left. Not many holidays in Europe at that price... And Egypt devalued over the winter so last year's ridiculously cheap prices (taxis, beer, meals out and excursions) will be even cheaper! I could have AirBNB'd for £6 a night!!
My theory is that you'd have to be pretty unlucky to get caught up in anything. Even some of the most awful massacres have taken place in a very small area so the chances of you being mixed up in it are pretty slim. I hope that theory holds... And while potentially more volatile, there have been no more incidents in Egypt than many "mainstream" tourist places over the past few years.
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>> My theory is that you'd have to be pretty unlucky to get caught up in
>> anything. Even some of the most awful massacres have taken place in a very small
>> area so the chances of you being mixed up in it are pretty slim. I
>> hope that theory holds... And while potentially more volatile, there have been no more incidents
>> in Egypt than many "mainstream" tourist places over the past few years.
>>
I agree you would be unlucky, but the last time I was there, about ten years ago, there was lots of infrastructure type security. Concrete blocks and barriers to prevent car bomb access to hotels and tourist shopping areas. When we transited from Hurgarda to Luxor and returned the coach convoy was escorted by heavily armed army vehicles and each coach had an armed guard on board. Lots of armed police and army around but I doubt their effectiveness if it all turned nasty. Not my idea of a relaxing holiday no matter how cheap!
I will not be back.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 11:14
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They've done away with much but not all of the infrastructure security. I'm sure I regularly see similar stuff elsewhere (like almost any European capital city!!) - armed police, barricades etc. albeit executed in a less rough and ready fashion.
There doesn't seem to be much of a correlation between visible security and safety anyway.
Having said that I can see that Egypt wouldn't suit everyone, but for more than just security reasons!! Egypt always felt a bit like a bomb site anyway, and the shopkeepers can be unpleasantly pushy!! I'm not planning on doing much other than mooching around the hotel private beach, swimming on their reef, and going into Hurghada town in the evenings, and an afternoon quad biking in the desert. Luxor is too long a day out for me, think it's 4 or 6 hours each way in a sweaty bus.
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>>Luxor is too long a day out for me, think it's 4 or 6 hours each way in a sweaty bus.
>>
Air conditioned coach please! We went to Luxor as part of a split holiday bdtween Hurghada and a Nile cruise.
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When I was there last year a taxi driver offered to take me to Luxor (return) for £30. almost 200 mile each way, full day out. The proper trip in a minibus is only £40 and includes entrance fees to a number of things. But I'm told they can be cramped and slow, with no "facilities", and few stops. As I generally get Deli belly in the heat it's best avoided...
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 12:33
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Its difficult to avoid Delhi belly.
Most people know about drinking water, ice and fruit/salad, but you also have to worry about plates/cutlery. They're all washed in the local water, and the water needn't be bad, just different.
Washing your own hands in local water is also fraught.
Still, hot, cooked food and nothing with water or ice, nothing washed and all fruit peeled is a start.
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>> Its difficult to avoid Delhi belly.
>>
>> Most people know about drinking water, ice and fruit/salad, but you also have to worry
>> about plates/cutlery. They're all washed in the local water, and the water needn't be bad,
>> just different.
So over the years i haven't really bothered to take too many precautions, and as a result I have a cast iron gut that's bothered by nothing.
That's not to say I won't pick up some nasty parasite by drinking Cambodian ditchwater
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Just remember, red meat can make you sick and white meat can kill you.
More seriously though, ditto. It has to be actually bad, rather than simply different, to get me.
The one I always watch for is food with flies. You have no idea what the fly walked in before it walked on your food. So I don't do buffets anywhere iffy.
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Norovirus will get you sooner or later
One of the most infectios diseases known to man and spectacular in its effect on the human gut. Great for weight loss though.
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>> Norovirus will get you sooner or later
>spectacular in its effect
>> on the human gut. Great for weight loss though.
>>
Depends entirely on the make up of the bacterial mix you carry in your gut. I am 62, eaten very dodgy food in dubious circumstances in undesirable locations and i think my digestive juices are pretty naturally toxic. Parasites scare the bejesus out of me tho
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>> Norovirus will get you sooner or later
>spectacular in its effect
>> on the human gut. Great for weight loss though.
>>
Depends entirely on the make up of the bacterial mix you carry in your gut. I am 62, eaten very dodgy food in dubious circumstances in undesirable locations and i think my digestive juices are pretty naturally toxic. Parasites scare the bejesus out of me tho
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"Depends entirely on the make up of the bacterial mix you carry in your gut. I am 62, eaten very dodgy food in dubious circumstances in undesirable locations and i think my digestive juices are pretty naturally toxic. Parasites scare the bejesus out of me tho.."
Actually it problably depends more on who and what you come into contact with. Norovirus is basically transmitted by ingesting food contaminated with infected faecal or vomit spray. If you are unlucky enough to ingest some of the virus you are pretty much doomed. A door handle touched by someone who has infected and has not washed their hands will do it. Spreads rapildy in places like cruise ships. My wife and I went down with it in Madeira and it probaably arrived on the island on a ship. Luckily we were staying in an apartment with a week to spare to recover.
No treatment but no lasting ill effects either.
Hope you never get it.
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>> A door handle touched by someone who has infected and has not washed their hands will
>> do it.
This is a bee in my bonnet.
In public lavatories I see men thoroughly wash their hands and then grab the door handles to get out. You don't know how many people with unwashed hands have held those door handles.
I always use a tissue or paper napkin to open a door.
Why is it that doors into toilets are always PUSH to get in - which you can do with your shoulder, but PULL to get out, when you have to hold a handle. Why not the other way round?
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>>This is a bee in my bonnet................
Mine also, but I can go worse than that.....
Considering the door handles and their terrible germ levels, wouldn't you be better washing your hands after arriving in the bathroom but BEFORE you touch anything important to you?
And presuming that you've learned the knack of not peeing on your fingers, what is it exactly that you are washing off your hands but are quite happy to have on you elsewhere?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 21:02
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Never mind the door handles! You do your business, whatever that may be. You go to wash your hands. You turn on tap, you wash, you turn off tap. Yes that tap everyone including yourself touched before you washed. Then of course you dry. Mind you can use the paper towel to isolate yourself from the door handle :)
That's why you see on medical programmes the staff using their elbows to operate taps.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 21:27
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>> Why is it that doors into toilets are always PUSH to get in - which
>> you can do with your shoulder, but PULL to get out, when you have to
>> hold a handle. Why not the other way round?
So you can rush in if you are dying for a pee.
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A matter considerably more pressing and urgent as you grow older than the theoretical level of viral contamination!
If you really want to get a good collection of germs into your system and build up your natural immunity I reckon a quick lick of one of those stainless steel poles in a tube train in rush hour will do the trick.
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>> A matter considerably more pressing and urgent as you grow older than the theoretical level
>> of viral contamination!
>>
>> If you really want to get a good collection of germs into your system and
>> build up your natural immunity I reckon a quick lick of one of those stainless
>> steel poles in a tube train in rush hour will do the trick.
The free nuts and crisps at the bar a real haven. Blokes go to the bog, dont wash their hands, then rummage around in the nuts and crisps.
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At my club [? The club I am a member of? ...that I go to? whatever] they place a bowl of nuts in front of each drinker, poured from the packet freshly, and then thrown away when that drinker leaves.
You'd think that was a good thing, but its not. Trouble is, it gets one into the habit of eating bar nuts and thus when one is in another bar, perhaps less hygienically minded, it is possible to forget oneself..
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>> The free nuts and crisps at the bar a real haven. Blokes go to the
>> bog, dont wash their hands, then rummage around in the nuts and crisps.
I was in a pub with SWMBO when a guy came out of the bog doing up his flies. SWMBO said, a little too loud (she used to be a teacher) "that's why you never eat snacks off the bar".
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I don't *think* its ever got me.
I was particularly ill one time in Columbia, but I don't think that was it since that was pinned down to a specific piece of food. Other than that I don't think I've ever had anything dramatic enough to be Norovirus.
I am, of course, touching a lot of wood.
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>> I wonder how that'll work in the future. Still, price worth paying and all that.
>>
EU laws are being incorporated into UK laws, so I can't see a problem there unless the govt decides to ditch that one.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 18 Apr 17 at 01:58
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We flew EasyJet to Catania a few weeks ago - glad we had checked in on-line plenty of time before the day of departure. Arrived with boarding passes already printed and also on the phone app.
I would have been annoyed if we could not fly. We'd secured accommodation that would have cost us to cancel at the last minute too.
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>>EU laws are being incorporated into UK laws, so I can't see a problem
I don't know. Surely it must be more than a simple passing of a law. Presumably you can't for example, inflict it on an airline not flying in or out of your country?
If, say, I was a US Citizen on a European flight between two European cities being carried by a European airline, and I covered in the same way as an EU citizen.
(Not a trick question, I don't know).
Are passengers on US operators flying into the EU governed by the US laws or EU laws or both?
I know that I, as an EU citizen, am covered by US laws on a US internal flight.
This bland statement of all "EU laws into UK law" is not, I fear, going to be as simple as all that.
Telephone roaming is another one which is likely to go quite badly wrong I suspect.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 17 Apr 17 at 18:57
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Well another angle of course is that UK airlines may re-locate to an EU country and then they become liable all over again
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>> Are passengers on US operators flying into the EU governed by the US laws or EU laws or both?
Read the link below, very clearly explained.
www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/flight-delays
The key is that whether flight originated from EU airport OR airline is EU based.
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EU does not have much choice. Britain, France, Germany, Italy (surprisingly) are major contributors to EU budget. With Britain leaving and France is in questionable situation, Italy not doing very good, how long Germany alone can bear the burden?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union
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"deal with UK for sure for sure"
Dog, she's Swedish not Irish... :-)
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re:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=22919&m=508734
smokie said: " I am currently still quite a lot of thousands short on SWMBOs Taylor Wimpey shares. They were around £1.90 immediately before the vote and went to about £1.20. Today they are back up at about £1.55. They were bought as a long term savings in an employee purchase scheme and are part of my retirement planning. "
Long term? Well today Taylor Wimpey are above 200p
Also, smokie stated there: "Zippy reported significant job losses today."
ONS report of 17 May 2107 -
The jobs market was robust with record employment rates and the lowest unemployment since 1975.
Employers continued to hire more staff. The employment rate breached a new record high of 74.8 per cent after another 122,000 people found work — a bigger number than economists were expecting. They were also encouraged by the types of jobs that were created. The number of full-time employees surged while part-time and self-employment fell.
Meanwhile the unemployment rate dropped to 4.6 per cent, the lowest since 1975.
The number of job vacancies in the three months to April also reaching a new record of 777,000.
The Guardian commented "Britain looks like a full employment economy. A bigger slice of the population is in work than at any time since modern records began. The unemployment rate is at its lowest since 1975. There are hundreds of thousands of job vacancies.".
No doubt the glass-half-full brigade will look for the negatives from this news.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Fri 19 May 17 at 15:17
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Hello Brian, it's nice to know you are thinking of me :-)
At the time I said those things they were true. The TW shares have taken a very long time to recover however if the vote had gone the other way I don't believe they would have needed to.
I still believe we would have been better to stay in the EU but I have accepted the vote is to leave. I still think the worst is yet to come and you are free to come back in another few months and have another crow at me if I am wrong.
At least I've mostly let it go, on here anyway. You here, and earlier Pat in a different thread, seem to want to keep picking at the scab. Trying to prove something I guess.
Anyway seeing as you are clearly more on the money than me, can you let me know when our currency will return to it's former values against the € and $, so I can plan my holidays? (Talking of which I am just back from Egypt, now THAT is a cheap and very hot place for a holiday!!)
btw an extraordinarily quick sample around Europe shows most countries are showing improved employment percentages. BREXIT influence is clearly widely felt. www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?continent=europe
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>>You here, and earlier Pat in a different thread, seem to want to keep picking at the scab. Trying to prove something I guess. <<
Spoken like a true remainer Smokie:)
You only see what you want to see.
Now, go and have a proper read and you will see it was neither myself or Brian Bypass who brought it up.
We just replied to someone else, but who wants to read the truth when a preconceived idea has to be justified?
I am truly sorry, I have sinned Master.
I sincerely thought a discussion forum was for ....a discussion?
Please explain the error of my ways so I may not do it again.
Pat
Last edited by: Pat on Fri 19 May 17 at 15:55
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>> At least I've mostly let it go, on here anyway.
>>
Fantastic. Even better to let it go everywhere else.
>> Anyway seeing as you are clearly more on the money than me, can you let
>> me know when our currency will return to it's former values against the € and
>> $, so I can plan my holidays? (Talking of which I am just back from
>> Egypt, now THAT is a cheap and very hot place for a holiday!!)
>>
Too late to advise you about the sudden drop in value of the £ last year. The "Britain Stronger in Europe" camp was right about one thing - they did warn you about the exchange rate Armageddon that was coming. Still not too late though to learn about "hedging" if you travel abroad frequently.
I hold foreign currency as well as foreign shares, and buy/sell on a "long term" basis.
>> btw an extraordinarily quick sample around Europe shows most countries are showing improved employment percentages.
>> BREXIT influence is clearly widely felt. www.tradingeconomics.com/country-list/unemployment-rate?continent=europe
>>
Good to know "Britain Stronger in Europe" camp was right again! They did say Europe would continue to prosper even if Britain voted to Leave.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Fri 19 May 17 at 16:09
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>> The Guardian commented "Britain looks like a full employment economy. A bigger slice of
>> the population is in work than at any time since modern records began. The unemployment
>> rate is at its lowest since 1975. There are hundreds of thousands of job vacancies."
>>
...it certainly did.....
but the very next sentence read...
But Britain doesn’t feel like a full employment economy.....
...and the gist of the articlecontinues in the same vein, and isn't at all in line with your (uber-selective) quote. Even Mandelson would have had difficulty spinning it the way you have attempted.
;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Fri 19 May 17 at 16:26
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Brainbypass discovered - well spotted t&e!
but the very next sentence read...
[b]But Britain doesn't feel like a full employment economy.....[/b]
...and the gist of the articlecontinues in the same vein, and isn't at all in line with your (uber-selective) quote. Even Mandelson would have had difficulty spinning it the way you have attempted.
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 19 May 17 at 16:28
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>> [b]But Britain doesn't feel like a full employment economy.....[/b]
>>
>>
It doesn't feel like a full employment economy .... Because we have an open EU border with almost limitless supply of labour. Close that open door down and you will see the impact of full employment. It is a well proven fact that wages have stayed lower than they would otherwise be because of the "free" movement of labour from EU countries.
There endeth an introductory lesson to first principles of basic economics.
Last edited by: BrianByPass on Fri 19 May 17 at 20:19
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Re "It is a well proven fact that wages have stayed lower than they would otherwise be because of the "free" movement of labour from EU countries."
I don't think so. The assessments of wages have not identified any significant depression. I take it you are not familiar with the FT? Or basic truth?
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I apologise for the last comment. Heat of the moment etc.
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It has been impossible to rely on the unemployment figures for years. Like a lot of under 65s, I may as well be unemployed most of the time but I am not registered. People on zero or low hours contracts (invented by employers who wanted to say they had scrapped zero hour ones) don't count as unemployed even though they might get very few shifts.
A ready supply of cheap foreign labour is bound to, and has undoubtedly, had a depressing effect on wages. To some extent, if you try to deal with that by keeping people out, you will end up with jobs being exported instead.
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>> It has been impossible to rely on the unemployment figures for years. Like a lot
>> of under 65s, I may as well be unemployed most of the time but I
>> am not registered.
But you are economically active. I am not "employed" but I am spending. At the moment, if you have a warm heartbeat, and you dont have "cut here" tattooed on your neck, you can get a job.
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>>Close that open door down and you will see the impact of full employment.
>> ...snip..
>> There endeth an introductory lesson to first principles of basic economics.
>>
...Aye well, good luck with that...
Economics (even at the basic level) is a very inexact science art; I prefer to study Realpolitik.
The ink wasn't dry on the manifesto 'commitment' on immigration before the majority of the Tory party were actively rowing back on it. I doubt anyone (even Mrs May) believes it is significantly reducible in the real world without severe economic impact (indeed, that's what the subsequent Tory briefings have centred around), so they don't believe it will be.
It does make you wonder just whose manifesto it is, though, since the word 'Conservative' seems to have been well and truly airbrushed from much of the campaign. It's not on the battle-bus (which is Treeza's), and I was the recipient today of a 'personal' election communication from herself that (in two sides of banner and close type) didn't contain the word 'Conservative' once, and extorted me to vote for her three times more than it did for my local Conservative candidate.
I note that the manifesto 'commitment' on immigration isn't the only one that the cabinet aren't fully behind.
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>> >> [b]But Britain doesn't feel like a full employment economy.....[/b]
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> It doesn't feel like a full employment economy ....
It does to me, people are working, people are spending. groups of unemployed are not queuing outside the job centre. ...
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>> Even Mandelson w
>>
Nearly blew my cover there.
A bit of brain fade.
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#BrexitDay - Roger.
