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As the title suggests, a place to discuss Formula One, and all other types of motorsport (excluding MotoGP, which has a section of its own).
PLEASE NOTE:-
To try and maintain some kind of logical order of discussion, if you start a new subject then reply to this post and remember to change the default subject header.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 26 Jul 10 at 10:20
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Last thread is just short of 100 replies, so preparing the next volume ready for Sunday's race at Siverstone.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 11 Jul 10 at 00:30
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Webber looked cheesed off in the post-qualifying propaganda interviews yesterday. I assume this is something to do with the fact that when Vettel's front wing fell off and broke, the remaining 'new' front wing was transferred from Webber's car to his. Horner said that decision was made based on their positions in the championship and on final practice pace.
Webber's comment when asked about it in the interview was "I think the team is happy with the result".
Given that Vettel is ahead on points, but still behind the leaders, maybe Horner's explanation should be taken at face value, but with 103 and 115 points the two are still very much in contention overall and with each other, especially given RBR's apparent superiority at the moment.
Of course Horner might be smarter than I give him credit for - maybe he thinks it's the way to motivate Webber, but I can't imagine motivation is his problem or he wouldn't be there.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 11 Jul 10 at 08:58
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Would think Hamilton, and especially Button, would be well pleased with the result following their disasterous practice sessions!
I do wonder what's going on at Red Bull... they should be so far ahead of the rest both in the drivers and constructors championships but they seem intent on squandering their advantages...
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You could say the same of McLaren the year before Hamilton won his title. It happens.
JH
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Zero is now sitting in a traffic jam. He will be there for some time.
Been there, done that, swore I'd never do it again but kept going back for some reason. If you haven't done it you have no idea what the sound and the atmosphere are like. But record it too. You get a better view on the tv.
JH
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Rosberg, both McLarens and Kobayashi outclassed themselves, Kobayashi as usual. Webber impeccable but still sour about having his new nose given to Vettel for qualifying. Alonso unfairly penalised. 5 seconds would have been all right but a drivethrough was excessively severe. Stefano Domenicali when interviewed did an authentic, Enzo-style, N'drangheta-flavoured cool, cold-eyed, hissing denunciation. Is he planning to make Mansell and Hill an offer they can't refuse?
Good race.
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AC, I agree that Alonso's punishment was excessive but it's almost worth it just to see the reaction! He does provide entertainment, on and off the track. Everyone is out to get him, apparently.
JH
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Alonso was unlucky to have to serve a drive through penalty after a safety car period..and the penalty may be considered harsh....but...if that penalty wasn't given, in reality there would have been no penalty, unless they were intent on fiddling the times after the race.
Alonso gained an advantage overtaking Kubica...he should have immediately conceded the place... then he would have been fine. He knew he should have conceded the place immediately back to Kubica, but chose not to, so his fate was in his own hands.
You create your own luck is my view.
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>>gained an advantage overtaking Kubica...he should have immediately conceded the place... then he would
>> have been fine. He knew he should have conceded the place immediately back to Kubica,
Mmm, now where have we seen this before...
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>>Mmm, now where have we seen this before...
It all adds to the fun :-)
We have quite a few drivers who appear to be not too happy.
Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Button ?
We may see more attempts to play dodgems in the future when the old fashioned red mist decends.
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One of the reporters on 5Live has just told me the race was exciting.
How can this be?
The one-two into the first bend was the same as at the chequered flag.
Unless something happened in middle.
I wouldn't know - I fell asleep.
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You want a flying car every time, don't you?
JH
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>> Zero is now sitting in a traffic jam. He will be there for some time.
>>
>> Been there, done that, swore I'd never do it again but kept going back for
>> some reason. If you haven't done it you have no idea what the sound and
>> the atmosphere are like. But record it too. You get a better view on the
>> tv.
He was back in the hamilton fields camp site by 16:30 cracking a beer or two. In fact a large tower of beer cans is growing as we speak.
YOu have to be there, to savour the atmosphere, (sse my post elsewhere) the smell, the noise, the fans.
Mind the toilets would even be decreed by the taliban as unholly for a peasant.
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>> Mind the toilets would even be decreed by the taliban as unholly for a peasant.
Servicing the loos must be logistical challenge. We cycled over 'en famille' to watch the Reds and then visit the MoL who's in a care home in Siverstone village. There was a regular shuttle of effluent tankers running from Whittlebury to the A5 and south. We passed around six of them in a couple of miles.
Contents described as 'non hazardous'!!!!
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That's a better idea then trying to get out. :-)
JH
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I should say that this is not a Ferrari defence though Alonso's penalty was simply ludicrous.
Firstly he was ahead of Kubica when he went off the track (even if they were directly side by side they were turning right so Alonso was effectively ahead), secondly Alonso had no choice because to have stayed on the track would have caused a collision due to Kubica pushing him to the right.
However even IF Alonso had offended then the penalty should be to give the place back so as Kubica then retired there was no one to give the place back to (i.e. had Alonso given the place back, and not subsequently re-passed Kubica, he would have re-gained the place anyway when Kubica retired) - as DC stated during the commentary.
So what the hell was the drive-through for?
The stewards intepretation of the rules and their application of penalties is ruining the racing this season and the ex-drivers dont seem to be helping.
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The passion seems to be missing this season, the '07 season where Raik, Massa, Hamilton and Alonso were fighting it out and it went to a three way showdown was full of passion. Also the '08 season where Hamilton scraped in on the last lap of the last race despite Massa's stella drive to victory in the wet. Though last season and this have been a bit antiseptic, not to take anything away from Button's championship of course.
It seems that the media want to create tension between the Red Bull drivers, and also the McLaren drivers, to enliven the whole show.
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"Firstly he was ahead of Kubica when he went off the track"
he wasnt
"secondly Alonso had no choice because to have stayed on the track would have caused a collision due to Kubica pushing him to the right."
Then you back off because your overtaking attempt failed.
Do you *ever* watch the same race as the rest of us?
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>> "Firstly he was ahead of Kubica when he went off the track"
>>
>> he wasnt
He was!
Have a look at the race on iPlayer, Alonso is ahead at 1:22.41, Kubica's front wheel then comes from behind Alonso's at 1:22.45 (you are viewing from onboard Alonso) as Kubica pushes Alonso to the right.
Last edited by: Cheddar on Mon 12 Jul 10 at 13:27
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Here's some video, Cheddar... it shows that they were wheel to wheel but Kubica was on the racing line all the way through the two corners, hence Alonso had to go off or take both of them out... all he had to do was give the place back like Hamilton did two years ago... but he didn't and thus had to be penalised... Pretty much the same as the Hamilton incident... and you strongly defended the penalty then even though he did give the place back! Wonder whats different this time... ;-)
www.f1media.be/2010/video/video-alonso-kubica-incident-silverstone-2010
Last edited by: hobby on Mon 12 Jul 10 at 15:44
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Cheddar,
In motor racing, obviously the quickest way around the circuit is the racing line. If you can temporarily 'get past' someone, but they occupy the racing line, then they have the advantage and you do not. They're perfectly entitled to remain on the racing line, even if it appears to the uninitiated that the overtaking driver is forced off the road...it's what it's all about.
Alonso tried to muscle past...which is good, it's what he's there for and he's a racer.. but.. Kubica was entitled to take that line and to defend the racing line. Alonso knew he'd do that and indeed he would have done the same, if the boot was on the other foot.
Alonso's choices were keep his foot in and try to muscle Kubica out of the way (which he did and failed) or back off before the corner and try again elsewhere.
Having tried option 1 and failed (and had no choice but to drive completely across the corner) he should have immediately conceded the place back to Kubica, because he completed his overtake completely off the circuit, in effect taking a shortcut.
That is why he got a penalty, otherwise his mistake would have gone unpunished, as Kubica was no longer running when the order could have been to concede the place back to Kubica.
Alonso was unlucky that: 1, Kubica retired, which meant the stewards couldn't order Alonso to concede the place and 2, a safety car period happened, which meant he ended up at the back.
However, if he or his team had immediately conceded the incorrect advantage he'd gained getting past Kubica, there would have been no penalty, so his fate was in his own/his team's hands
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IIRC Coulthard thought it was a bit hard on Alonso, in so far as he got a drive through rather than being made to let Kubica by, on the basis that he couldn't have known that Kubica would retire!
I thought at the time that the fact he couldn't have known Kubica would retire was on the contrary a good reason why he should have surrendered the place as soon as possible.
Anyway it's now quite funny when Alonso is badly done to. His reaction to perceived slights and injustices is his Achilles heel.
I thought much the same of Webber's sulking, but he seemed to turn his anger into competitive success - I'd half expected him to crash trying to prove his capability.
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>> In motor racing, ...it's what it's all about.
>>
A tad patronising Westpig.
>> Alonso tried to muscle past...>>
Alonso was ahead before the left hander and had the inside line to the right hander (2nd apex if you call it a chicane), he was in control and did not need to cut the corner to complete the move, rather Kubica could have given him room though didnt, a driver should not be penalised for leaving the circuit to avoid an accident.
As I said before have a look at the race on iPlayer, Alonso is ahead at 1:22.41, Kubica's front wheel then comes from behind Alonso's at 1:22.45 (you are viewing from onboard Alonso) as Kubica pushes Alonso to the right.
Even IF Alonso had offended then the penalty should be to give the place back, and not to give time to the rest of the field, so as Kubica had then retired there was no one to give the place back to.
It might be interesting to compare it with Hamilton at Spa in '08 as has been suggested though I have not had time.
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Come off it Cheddar ;-) Fernando was off the circuit with all four wheels, because he'd started something he couldn't finish and run out of road.
I doubt that Kubica could have taken the long way round at that point to make room, even if he had been so inclined*, being as committed as he was.
I'll have another look when SWMBO's not watching the news, and if I'm wrong I'll apologise...
*which I doubt he was, it presumably being so much fun to provoke Alonso.
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Look at Iplayer 1:21:00 to 1:21:20
nowhere is Alsonso "in front" He took the place by going off the track.
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>> As I said before have a look at the race on iPlayer, Alonso is ahead
>> at 1:22.41, Kubica's front wheel then comes from behind Alonso's at 1:22.45 (you are viewing
>> from onboard Alonso) as Kubica pushes Alonso to the right.
You have your perspective completely screwed up, His wheel disapears because its too far out of the view to the side, not behind.
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Alonso would know (he has being in the business for some time) that either Kubica would allow him to have the racing line (unlikely) or he would have to go off. That he had to cut the corner would have been no surprise to him.
He knew he had done something wrong because he spoke to the team to check with them . .
If he had given the place back straight away he would not have been penalised but he was trying to take advantage and probably believed he would just get a 5s penalty after the race.
The penalty may seem harsh because Kubica had stopped but you have to make sure the drivers know that they will be penalised or what is the point of putting chicanes in - they will just cut all the corners to overtake.
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Its pretty clear to everyone but Cheddar that Alonso tried to get past Kubica but didn't make it... recently I tried out the simulator at the Nurbergring and at the start of the race shot from the back to the front before realising that there was a sharp bend that everyone else had slowed down for! I was in front, but only because I was going too fast for the corner and could only have got round it if everyone else had got out of the way! Thats all Alonso did...
Cheddar, Kubica was on the racing line the whole time, and, in F1 that means he is able to hold that line and Alonso has to back off... he didn't, which is fair enough, but then he was forced out and cut the corner which put him in front... all he had to do was ease off and let him back in front straight away... that rule had been clarified after the Hamilton incident in 2008 and he was well aware of it!!!
Instead of agruing black is white perhaps you need to ask Alonso why he didn't cede the place straight away as I assume under that helmet he has a modicom of common sense and realised what he had done...
If he wants to race where he can have a no-holes-barred race through the bends where anything goes perhaps you could suggest to him that he tries Banger racing!
Last edited by: hobby on Tue 13 Jul 10 at 08:43
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>>
>> Cheddar, Kubica was on the racing line the whole time, and, in F1 that means
>> he is able to hold that line >>
You cannot simply drive around on the racing line oblivious to all around you, no, instead you have to be aware that others will try to pass, Alonso had passed and was ahead with the inside line to the 2nd apex so Kubica could have and probably should have given him room.
However even if you accept that Alonso should have conceded the place back to Kubica then there is the matter of Kubica slowing and retiring.
To quote Stefano Domenicalli:
""You can have a situation where immediately there is a possibility to give back the position to a driver if you feel that there is really an advantage that you gain. On our side we felt that was not the case otherwise we would have done it."
"As soon as we received the information that in the opinion of the stewards, Fernando should have given back the position to Robert, Robert was already very far behind and Robert was really slowing down because he had a problem."
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>> You cannot simply drive around on the racing line oblivious to all around you, no,
>> instead you have to be aware that others will try to pass, Alonso had passed
>> and was ahead with the inside line to the 2nd apex so Kubica could have
>> and probably should have given him room.
No you can't if you are going very slowly.... but you can if you are doing the maximum speed for that corner (which Kubica was) and the other chap (Alonso) tries to get through at a speed which he couldn't without causing a crash... If you watch the video carefully you will see that the only reason he is *briefly* in front is that he was going too quick to get round, and he was way off the racing line... he was trying to *muscle* his way past but the other driver defended his line which he was perfectly entitled to and so Alonso went off the track...
At the end of the day the subsequent circumstances were unfortunate for him, but the penalty had to be made or the other teams would have, rightly, protested... The solution was in his hands as soon as he left that corner... perhaps you can stop talking about the incident itself and explain why he did not just cede the place and overtake him later... plenty of time in the race and no penalty! Their explanation just doesn't wash, they knew the rules... you do it straight away, not several laps later.
As the Merecats say... Simpless
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 14 Jul 10 at 08:59
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>Alonso had passed and was ahead
Its already been explained to you, he wasnt until he went off the road. You dont conceed to someone off the track.
Of course you can drive around on the racing line holding people up. Its a legitimate tactic to maintain position and its done countless times ans is perfectly legal.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 14 Jul 10 at 09:07
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Zero is right - as long as you are racing for position, which they were - otherwise it's a blue flag and you have to cede position within three (?) flags. Also rules about how many times you can swerve across to block other drivers - didn't Hamilton fall foul of that one a bit back?
Been rethinking this one, IMO it's not really a penalty, more just giving back a position gained in an unfair way. Alonso should have done so quickly, but as he didn't and Kubica retired I think the drive through was somewhat unfair, much as I hate appearing to support the mouthy Spaniard. If he had ceded the place not much else would have changed. However the penalty might make him think twice about unsporting behaviour.
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Thats why the rule was clarified after the Hamilton incident at Spa in 2008... Alonso and the team knew that but for some reason ignored the consequenses if he didn't cede the place straight away... and then circumstances conspired against them... the penalty seemed harsh only because of what subsequently happenned to Kubica and the introduction of the safety car, but the rule is there and that was the penalty if they didn't give the place back straight away... He and the Team knew that... perhaps they'll do it right next time...
Last edited by: hobby on Wed 14 Jul 10 at 09:54
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>> You cannot simply drive around on the racing line oblivious to all around you, no,
>> instead you have to be aware that others will try to pass, Alonso had passed
>> and was ahead with the inside line to the 2nd apex so Kubica could have
>> and probably should have given him room.
Absolutely wrong. The racing line is what they all wish to achieve, it's where you expect someone to be, it's almost like a lane to be in. If someone else wants that line, they have to well and truly achieve it by forcing you off it. Alonso did not achieve that. It matters not that he might have been ahead at one point, there are many corners where drivers can do that, but they still can't get to the racing line and beat the car in front. Being temporarily in front at one point has no meaning in this context.
Alonso gave it a good go.... and failed. In failure he had no choice but to totally leave the track...and in doing so he overtook...so he's WRONG...and copped a penalty for it, because he did not right the wrong when he could have and was unfortunate to have Kubica's car fail at a time a steward could have demanded he concede the place...so the only other penalty was drive through. He could have avoided the penalty by conceding immediately after the wrong manoeuvre...he didn't, so must take the conequences.
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>> If someone else wants that line, they have to well and truly achieve it by forcing you off
>> it. Alonso did not achieve that. It matters not that he might have been ahead
>> at one point, there are many corners where drivers can do that, but they still
>> can't get to the racing line and beat the car in front. Being temporarily in
>> front at one point has no meaning in this context.
>>
Alonso had passed and was ahead, he was off the racing line though had the inside line to the 2nd apex. If he had not moved off the track as Kubica moved across on him then either they would have colided or Kubica would have moved left.
The racing line is simply the theoretically fastest line around the track though being "on" it does not give a driver additional rights. A driver can be off the racing line though still ahead and also best placed for the next corner, in fact this is usually the case following any overtake.
>> He could have avoided the penalty by conceding immediately after the wrong manoeuvre...he didn't, so must take the conequences. >>
He couldn't because Kubica slowed then retired, see the Domenicalli quote I posted above.
Furthermore in the event that he should have conceded the place though couldn't because the other driver retired then a drive-through is not an appropriate alternative because that does nothing to repay the driver that was apparently impeded, instead it simply gives time to everyone else in the field.
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>Alonso had passed and was ahead
he was not.
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Who would have thought Alonso's fan club president would spend so much time on here.
Surely Cheddar should maybe change his name to Alfonso or similar.
Just because you want it Cheddar, doesnt mean its reality, get over it, the stewards had more data than you and one must believe they know more about their job than you do, or it would be you in the job, wouldnt it?
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>> Who would have thought Alonso's fan club president .... >>
That's a carp attitude Stu, it is simply discussion.
With regard to any accusations of favouring Alonso and Ferrari, have a look back to posts re Monaco, I was the one advocating that Schumacher in the Mercedes should NOT have been penalised for overtaking on the last lap, who did he overtake? Yes Alonso in the Ferrari.
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According to a report today, Whiting said that Ferrari were informed immediately that he would have to give the place back and they were subsequently told two further times to give the place back. So he knew he had to and refused. Interesting that you support him in that. Its a strange view to take really.
Its not a carp attitude, its called having a dig, lighten up ya misery.
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>> Alonso had passed and was ahead, he was off the racing line though had the
>> inside line to the 2nd apex. If he had not moved off the track as
>> Kubica moved across on him then either they would have colided or Kubica would >>have moved left.
Yes, that's correct, although he knew that Kubica's motion and intent was such that it would have been very unwise indeed to have tried to make the corner, there would have been an accident. Alonso would have done the same the other way around. It's debatable if Kubica could have avoided him even if he'd wanted to. Alonso knows all of this, that's why he did an urgent right and went off the track, i.e. because he knew Kubica was not going to concede WHICH KUBICA WAS PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO DO and his (Alonso's) attempt had failed.
>>
>> The racing line is simply the theoretically fastest line around the track though
>> being "on"it does not give a driver additional rights. A driver can be off the racing
>> line though still ahead and also best placed for the next corner, in fact this
>> is usually the case following any overtake.
Agreed, although the angle I was coming from was that of an overtaking car wishing to occupy the part of the track that another car is already on or intent on taking. The overtaker has to do all the hard work with knowledge that the other car is going to do things that an ordinary motorist wouldn't e.g. take a racing line.
>>
>> He couldn't because Kubica slowed then retired, see the Domenicalli quote I posted above.
True...but because he didn't self regulate and do so when he had the opportunity. So when the stewards got formal, that option was no longer available. Too bad, his choice, wrong call.
>> Furthermore in the event that he should have conceded the place though couldn't >>because the other driver retired then a drive-through is not an appropriate >>alternative because that does nothing to repay the driver that was apparently >>impeded, instead it simply gives time to everyone else in the field.
>>
Yes...and ensures continuity, makes sure that all drivers know that a mistake or known wrong 'will be put right' and encourages drivers/teams to 'do the right thing'. No penatly would have meant Alonso was far further forward on the track than he should have been, because being behind Kubica was holding him up.
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>> Yes...and ensures continuity, makes sure that all drivers know that a mistake or known wrong
>> 'will be put right' and encourages drivers/teams to 'do the right thing'. No penatly would
>> have meant Alonso was far further forward on the track than he should have been,
>> because being behind Kubica was holding him up.
>>
However if Alonso had immediately let Kubica past and then Kubica had slowed (as he did) then that also would not have been no penalty. The point is that it is not supposed to be a penalty at all, rather it is a matter of giving back a place taken by cutting a corner however if the competitor than has been passed immediately slows/retires then, in effect, no advantage has been gained anyway.
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He DID have the oportunity to give the place back as soon as he had passed him by going off track... he chose not to, despite knowing the consequences... he can hardly complain when he was penalised for being in a place he shouldn't have been from that moment on... and the effect that had on all the other drivers out on the track.
You are quite clearly wrong in this case but you have done what I do from time to time and have dug yourself so deep that you can't get out... the only thing to do is stop digging any deeper and move on and forget it!
Decission is yours, m8!
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>> He DID have the oportunity to give the place back as soon as he had
>> passed him by going off track... >>
You are muddling two points, 1/ whether Alonso was ahead went he went off the track and 2/ if he was not ahead and therefore deserved a penalty was the drive-through fair in the event that Kubica almost immediately retired.
My views on both are clear above.
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Cheddar's views are often seen here and many disagree. Can we agree to disagree at times. Life is too short.
Whether we agree or not, the stewards gave a penalty.
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Think you'll find we've tried that before, rtj...
We'll just have to get the same coverage of the race as he has, then we'd just be able to agree with him... but the Beeb won't give us it! ;-)
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That proves they knew they were dirty, they were pushing their luck and it backfired ;-)
Why else would Rivola ask the question?
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they didnt need an order, they knew alonso gained a position by going off the track.
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I'm beginning to suspect that Cheddar is a Prophet, come among us to enlighten us heathens and to lead us to the one true team that can do no wrong. His courage, faith and blind devotion in the face of unending doubt and opposition (not to mention facts, logic and video replay) is to be praised. Just as he's popped into the pot! :-)
JH
Last edited by: Tooslow on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 11:36
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The next GP next weekend, is at Hockenheim starting at 13:00.
Lord knows what race Cheddar will be tuned into.
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>> I'm beginning to suspect that Cheddar is a Prophet, come among us to enlighten us
>> heathens and to lead us to the one true team that can do no wrong.
>>
Hehe though tosh, as I said above with regard to any accusations of favouring Alonso and Ferrari, have a look back to posts re Monaco, I was the one advocating that Schumacher in the Mercedes should NOT have been penalised for overtaking on the last lap, who did he overtake? Yes Alonso in the Ferrari.
>>His courage, faith and blind devotion in the face of unending doubt and opposition (not
>> to mention facts, logic and video replay) is to be praised. Just as he's popped
>> into the pot! :-) >>
Just facts though you all apparently have a jingistic approach that presents the facts through a Ferrari red mist.
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I'm pleased you took it in the spirit intended C. :-)
JH
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Pause this replay at about 0.12 where Alsonso is completely off the track - he's not wheel to wheel with Kubica, he's almost a full car width to the right of him, all four wheels inside the kerb. Neither is he in front until he has been off road.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5xH5CRkllo
It was close, but the harsh consequences were entirely avoidable. All Alonso had to do was give back the place, then try again, the failsafe option. Instead they pushed their luck and lost out. Steve Sunday would come out of it better if he just admitted they made a wrong call; they knew it was a gamble, else why ask Whiting at all?
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 17 Jul 10 at 14:17
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>> Neither is he in front until he has been off road.
>>
Are you watching it with an open mind or anti Ferrari blinkers? Alonso is ahead before they turn left, at about 26"/27", Kubica's front wing then comes back into view at about 29" where he pushes Alonso wide. Alonso did not need to go off track to make the pass, rather he did so to avoid contact. It's a racing incident that should require no attention from the stewards.
You are missing the key point though - even IF Alonso deserved a penalty was the drive-through fair in the event that Kubica almost immediately retired, clearly not.
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>> You are missing the key point though - even IF Alonso deserved a penalty was
>> the drive-through fair in the event that Kubica almost immediately retired, clearly not.
>>
>>
No, C, its you that is missing the point, as all of us have said, and your earlier link shows, they were aware straight away what he had done, they should have ceded the place at that point, the rules were clear, he got past whilst off the circuit, of that there's no denying, the video proves it... and if he had it would have been BEFORE Kubica started to slow... problem solved.
As for your comments about the position of the cars, Kubica had no need to cede the place as Alonso was not past him... If all the drivers took your view all a driver would have to do is go into a corner too quickly to take it without forcing the other driver off the road (as Alonso did) and then claim that he was in the "right" as he was "in front", even if he had no chance of making it round unless the other guy gave way or they crashed!
However we are, as usual, going round in circles, you won't agree with our opinion and we certainly won't agree with your (sole) opinion... so as said earlier perhaps its time to move on? ;-)
Last edited by: hobby on Sun 18 Jul 10 at 15:40
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At the risk of appearing to start Westpig's fan club, I've already said he's right, and he's still right. If you feel the penalty is harsh, look on it as a penalty for waving two fingers at the rules i.e. for not self regulating. He knows what the rules are, he chose to ignore them. Simply forcing him to give back the place would not have not punished him for failing to obey the rules. He could, and should, have given back the place there and then. He chose not to. In so doing he was asking for a penalty, which he received. Kubica retiring has little to do with it.
JH
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>> It seems that the media want to create tension between the Red Bull drivers, and
>> also the McLaren drivers, to enliven the whole show.
they dont need to, the tension is there. Did you see the Turkish crash or did your tele show you a different race again?
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Cant believe Im saying this, but Im with Zero on this one.
I think Webber may have legit issues with Seb now, much in the same way Alonso did with Hamilton.
Should make for some fun moments.
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What's Happening at Red Bull - this month's SniffPetrol made me laugh
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RedBull should alter their catchphrase slightly...
"RedBull gives you (Mark Webber's) wings"
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Can F1 not just implement the same rules as Touring Cars ie last man standing is the winner?? Much more fun than spending a week analysing if someone's dust cap got to a corner before someone else's!
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results in touring cars have been changed after the race, mostly due tho to thuggery.
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Like Vettels pass on Sutil where he barged him off the racing line. Not even investigated. Strange.
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Drivers and marshalls alike made a miraculous escape at Brands Hatch after a racing car flew out of control and flipped over crash barriers.
Seat Leon Eurocup driver Francisco Carvalho collided with fellow drivers as they went wheel-to-wheel round a corner at the Kent circuit, and was knocked off the track.
The Portuguese driver not only managed to survive the accident, but he was credited with finishing fourth and recorded the fastest lap of the race because they red flagged it.
Full report here:-
uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/article/18609/
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 19 Jul 10 at 18:54
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The link did not work for me.
This clip has two views of the incident
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsca3UqysrI
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Both links work for me - well worth a look - thanks.
Henry's is a bit handier because there's no advert to sit through.
Brilliant, clear footage.
The cartwheeling car looks to have got within a few feet of one of the fleeing marshals.
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>> The cartwheeling car looks to have got within a few feet of one of the
>> fleeing marshals.
Less than that i suspect, he appeared to get hit on the back of the ankle
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>> he appeared to get hit on the back of the ankle
That must have smarted a bit if he did. I once hit my boss off the backhand with a squash ball in the small of his back and he moaned on about it for ages......
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..I once hit my boss off the backhand with a squash ball in the small of his back...
If you'd hit him with a Seat Leon he really would have had something to gripe about.
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Exactly...wimp. In fairness Seat Leons hadn't been invented then but a Mk 1Golf would have been about right at the time as an alternative. Smaller and lighter mind, so maybe not a good comparison. What early eighties hatchback should I have hit him with to get a true reading do you think ? Or would I have had to move up to the next size bracket ? A Cortina maybe or an early 3 series given his status ?
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Mon 19 Jul 10 at 21:03
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I once had a boss who was a bit 'right on'.
One day in the office he was burbling on about the undesirability of corporal punishment of children.
"I can't imagine being hit by something several times my own size," he said.
"Tell you what," I said quick as a flash. "You step outside and I'll get the keys to the pool car."
Oh, how we laughed - and it shut him up.
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Be interested to see after the Massa/Alonso incident.
1/ What the BR C4P team thinks (presumably you meant C4P and not BR?)
2/ What action, if any, the FIA takes.
Mind you, in the race cheddar sees it probably never happened.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 19:55
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Ferrari should be banned for the rest of the season. People pay money to see a race not a contrived procession.
Blatant rule breaking.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 18:17
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If they are going to use code for messages they should use something above primary school level.
But then, it's Ferrari so it's OK and it evidently fooled the likes of Jean Todt. Who was it he used to work for?
I guess all the fuss will be over by tomorrow.
Never mind the poor old spectators who were looking forward to a proper tussle.
Last edited by: Webmaster on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 18:17
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Ferrari's day, Massa's race, Alonso miserable and apologetic on the podium, Massa miffed of course but also secretly triumphant. Massa has to be a Ferrari man to the bone, especially after the team's loyalty to him following his accident a year ago. Wonderful performances from the charming Stefano Domenicali and Massa's race engineer whose post-race interview was a masterpiece of neat and tidy wool-pulling, following his mischievously explicit radio messages at the crucial juncture.
I am with David Coulthard on the subject of team orders, not with Eddie Jordan who doth in my opinion protest too much for a man who must be no stranger to team orders himself. Coulthard pointed out that they have been part of top-class motor racing from the very start, when drivers were often rich amateurs. By engineering an Alonso win Ferrari have got him back within shouting distance of the driver's championship. If they continue on today's pace for a couple of races they could be back in contention.
It will be interesting to see if there is any enquiry about this race.
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Team red have been summoned to the Stewards.
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So many more things they could have done such as have Massa turn his engine down and have Alonso turn his up, atleast make it look half realistic .
Yet another rule risk by Alonso that may not end well. If he feels he is so deserving, he should perhaps perform better than Massa rather than have him slip his foot off the gas, so obviously.
Lets hope the Ferrari International Assistance membership is paid up this year.
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Ferrari fined $100,000 USD. Pity the didn't move Alonso back a place or dock his points.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 17:17
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cheap points. They would happily buy them at that price.
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At this very circuit 2 years ago Hamltons team mate let him through on his way to victory..
www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3497076,00.html
I find it srange the this was not even investigated.
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>> I find it srange the this was not even investigated.
>>
>>
Was it before the "Team order" rule change, or even instigate it ?
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It was 6 years after the rule came in. Rule came in 2002.
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OK didn't know. Thanks.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 17:37
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No probs. Dont get me wrong I think they could have engineered it better. But team orders have never gone away in F1. Look at the current trend of "Fuel saving" periods....
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>> No probs. Dont get me wrong I think they could have engineered it better. But
>> team orders have never gone away in F1. Look at the current trend of "Fuel
>> saving" periods....
Yes they treat the fans like idiots.
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So being more sneaky about it is preferable? Martin Brundle et al all said they would have done the same, but more covertly. Im sure they could (should?) have said to Massa some code about fuel saving mode 5 or whatever, and there would have been no fuss.
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>> So being more sneaky about it is preferable? Martin Brundle et al all said they
>> would have done the same, but more covertly. Im sure they could (should?) have said
>> to Massa some code about fuel saving mode 5 or whatever, and there would have
>> been no fuss.
If it looked like massa breaking too late, or the wrong line and Alonso dived through, whos to know.....
Doing it blantantly is taking the .... and insulting to the fans.
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Pits to massa
"fuel saving 5"
Pits to alonso
"Massa given fuel saving 5 instruction"
fuel saving 5 = "in two laps driver will make a mess of turn 5"
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There was no instruction from the Team given on that occasion. And Hamilton was *considerably* faster than Hekki in that race.
Circumstances this time round were considerably different. Akin to the days of Schumacher and Barichello.
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I dont remember team radios being broadcasted at that time? He definitely let hm through though. He was faster that day, but again the same rule was broken regardless of circumstance.
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>> I dont remember team radios being broadcasted at that time? He definitely let hm through
Team radios were monitored by the FIA.
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Telemetry? Video evidence? It was quite clear when it happened, and although it was mentioned in post race analysis it was brushed off.
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Each of the last three races has produced some lively discussion on here.
I've posted a few times about nodding off during F1, but it just goes to show there is quite a bit going on, if you know what to look for.
I didn't watch this race, but I really must try to concentrate on the next one I look at.
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>> cheap points. They would happily buy them at that price.
I agree. That's where it's really at.
If I were Domenicali I wouldn't be best pleased with Massa or his brilliant race engineer. It was they who mischievously allowed the joins to show and cost the team a (trivial, admittedly) $100,000 fine. Perhaps though that is regarded as reasonable retaliation in the world of F1.
Treating the fans like idiots Zero? What could you mean? Are the fans supposed to believe it's just a competition between computer game robots on a level playing field? Tchah!
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"Pity they didn't move Alonso back a place or dock his points. "
Quite agree - that would have been a far more positive outcome (and a lesson to everyone else). I wish Massa had responded to the instruction with the question "are you ordering me to let him pass?" to which the answer would have had to be No.
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Atleast other teams now know the fixed penalty amount, which by F1 standards, is small change so well worth manipulating the race - it would be hard to charge a different amount for similar breaches now as a precedent has been set.
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>> "Pity they didn't move Alonso back a place or dock his points. "
>>
>> Quite agree - that would have been a far more positive outcome (and a lesson
>> to everyone else). I wish Massa had responded to the instruction with the question "are
>> you ordering me to let him pass?" to which the answer would have had to
>> be No.
>>
Massa is in income protection mode. He is just the hired help.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 25 Jul 10 at 18:48
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"Massa is in income protection mode."
So am I! I had a small wager on Massa winning... :-(
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Send an invoice to Ferrari, quoting your loss. You never know. :-)
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Silverstone GP - VxFan