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Weather crazy or otherwise.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 21:42
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Look at the pictures at the top of this DM report of a lorry driving through what looks like pretty deep water, with its bow wave nearly knocking over a woman standing (for some reason) in same water:
tinyurl.com/ojo7pva
Hopefully neither lorry nor woman has suffered long term damage.
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tinyurl.com/phhwse7 should be doing good business after the cleaning up finishes...
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I know Old Windsor reasonably well because I used to visit the area regularly for work including courses. The river of course runs very close to the homes and I recall the river level is near the ground level so it wouldn't take much of a rise in the river levels to cause problems.
One thing that has occurred to me is what impact does the Thames Barrier have. It was designed to protect from tidal and storm surges from the sea flooding London. So in the bad weather it's been closed a fair bit - my question is does it prevent the flow of the Thames to sea when it's closed because wouldn't that effect upstream areas?
I realise the barrier when closed is stopping surges up river which will benefit all. But is it being closed when the tide is not high?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 12:24
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"But is it being closed when the tide is not high?"
In short, no.
www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/floods/118175.aspx
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>> "But is it being closed when the tide is not high?"
>>
>> In short, no.
>>
>> www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/floods/118175.aspx
>>
I think the ultimate priority will be keeping central London dry regardless of collateral damage.
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>> "But is it being closed when the tide is not high?"
>>
>> In short, no.
>>
>> www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/floods/118175.aspx
>>
In short, actually, "yes."
"In general terms the Thames Barrier would start to close about 1.5 hours after low water at North Woolwich. Closure of all 10 gates takes about 1.5 hours"
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>> I realise the barrier when closed is stopping surges up river which will benefit all.
>> But is it being closed when the tide is not high?
>
There was something in the Guardian about that today. I think they quoted a tweet from the barrier's staff.
By stopping/controlling the tidal surge at the barrier water is allowed to flow freely over Teddington weir, improving the drainage upstream.
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>> I know Old Windsor reasonably well because I used to visit the area regularly for work including courses.
Perhaps at my last old school rtj, which ended up I believe in the hands of some sort of IT outfit? Nice handsome main building. Its playing fields (apart from the cricket flat) were on Runnymede and got flooded all the time.
The houses across the river will have got their feet wet regularly over the years. Some of them were on islands I seem to remember.
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>> Perhaps at my last old school rtj, which ended up I believe in the hands
>> of some sort of IT outfit? Nice handsome main building. Its playing fields (apart from
>> the cricket flat) were on Runnymede and got flooded all the time.
Must have been the ICL Beaumont Campus.
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Yes ICL Beaumont for courses etc. ICL sold that many years ago though but did built new accommodation to make it into decent accommodation for courses run there. I once spent quite a bit of time there on courses. It is now a Principal Hayley hotel. I've stayed there in recent years as a Principal Hayley hotel - it's not changed much to be honest. Still a nice setting.
I've also stayed a few times in Datchet as it is handy for CA which is nearby. At lunchtime saw Datchet on the news and pretty sure I was seeing the hotel I stayed at behind them (the Manor Hotel?) A fair distance from the Thames really so the railway line is under water as well then.
Last time I was in Old Windsor, as I drove to CA in Datchet, I passed President Sarkozy and his wife who were coming in the direction of Old Windsor. He should have had a booster cushion :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 14:06
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>> a Principal Hayley hotel - it's not changed much to be honest. Still a nice setting.
God how prole, we would have said when it was a school.
I'm almost tempted to try it, but the thought of perhaps landing in one of my old rooms (where it was not unknown to eke out the mingy coal ration with perfectly good chairs stomped to pieces by huge evil rugger players... 'It was already broken Father (or Sir), de Villiers sat on it, he's a bit simple Sir...') and clicking into a ghastly timewarp is strangely frightening...
I hope that cricket ground is still there though. It was glorious.
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>> ICL Beaumont Campus.
Do you know the place Alanović? Cricket flat is up behind the building, just across the road from the edge of Windsor Great Park. Dunno what it was like as a ground because I don't play cricket, but it was really beautiful in a beautiful setting, cypress trees and stuff in the afternoon sun.
Parents used to take their sprogs to lunch at the grand Bells of Ouseley just outside the main gate, but 'our' pub was the louche Fox & Castle, on a back road parallel to the Thames. It was well known to, and tolerated by, the school authorities, but you couldn't be caught coming out of it unless you were over 17 without having to face a firing squad.
First Eight and First Fifteen (I wasn't in either) used to sign the backs of certain old pictures in the bar. I wonder if they are still there?
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>> Do you know the place Alanović?
Grew up in Windsor, AC. Back of the hand stuff. Know the Fox & Castle/Bells of Ouseley well.
My drinkers (when, ahem, not quite strictly 18) were The Lord Nelson at Old Windsor, and the Hernes Oak at Winkfield. I worked in the White Hart at Winkfield for a while too. World's most miserable and bolshy landlord at the time, which is some accolade. The other one I frequented at Old Windsor was The Oxford Blue, my Mum used to work at the geriatric hospital opposite Reg Dwight's place too. As a kiddie I used to enjoy stripping the apple trees bare in the autumn. Had several relatives work for ICL at that place too, in fact I now work for its successor organisation.
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 14:19
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>> in fact I now work for its succesor organisation.
Interesting - which office? You're not based in BRA01, BRA07 or REA24 are you?
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>> tinyurl.com/phhwse7 should be doing good business after the cleaning up finishes...
>>
Yes a good idea........... until the groundwater comes up through the floor.
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woman standing (for some reason) in same water
She heard it was standing water - that's why.
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>> tinyurl.com/ojp9ltd (order-order.com)
There was an expert quoted on the radio this morning over Eric Pickles performance on the box yesterday.
Said, in terms, that Pickles was talking rubbish about dredging and that "he'd be more use as a sandbag".
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Heard last week that the cost of dredging would be into the £4,000,000 mark of which the E.A had pledged £1.5M. Apparently the biggest expense would be transporting the dredged silt out to sea for dumping.
Why not use it to raise the river-banks and grass it over?
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>> Heard last week that the cost of dredging would be into the £4,000,000 mark of
>> which the E.A had pledged £1.5M. Apparently the biggest expense would be transporting the dredged
>> silt out to sea for dumping.
>> Why not use it to raise the river-banks and grass it over?
>>
Might kill some birds nesting, or a few snails..
Got to do a year long bird survey first...
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"Apparently the biggest expense would be transporting the dredged silt out to sea for dumping."
If our land keeps dropping into the rivers and the rivers become a bit clogged up - and we dredge the rivers and dump it out at sea …………………..
Er ……. anybody see a long-term problem with that???
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The silt is regularly dredged out of the canals and usually spread on the fields round here. Maybe it depends what they dredge up.
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Bloated doesn't even begin to describe the EA.
Or Eric Pickles. But the EA is unbelievably ineffective from what I can see.
They came and jetted a ditch and a culvert down the road near the site of a previous flood. This (a) shoved a load of silt into the ditch that my pal (who has been made responsible for it) had kept clear, adjacent to his house, and (b) killed all the fish in the ditch.
He rang them up, principally about the fact that they had just moved the blockage along. Several days later they sent two people who tested the water, found it contained adequate oxygen, and assured him the fish would be fine (or would have been if they weren't all dead).
They were set up AFAIK to de-politicise all this essential public interest stuff and all that's happened is that they have taken away responsibilities from where they were and then neglected them.
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The EA appears to have gone wrong in Somerset in 2000 with the appointment of Baroness (Barbara) Young. A committed bird watcher, she decreed that dredging harmed birds, and so it should be stopped.
When the current lot came into power, they didn't change this back. Not a clever decision, but in reality how would you know you ought to; it's very hard to identify ridiculous decisions like that, particularly once they have been in place for a good number of years. People have forgotten about it; people have moved on and changed job.
And so now, Baroness Young is interviewed on Today (8.50 this morning) and she said 'I am not briefed on this, I cannot comment.'
The EA blame the Treasury "They wouldn't let us spend the money." What this actually means is that the EA didn't try to put together a clear case.
The reality is that it's the result of a policy put in place nearly fifteen years ago.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 15:33
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They were set up AFAIK to de-politicise all this essential public interest stuff
And then appointed ex Labour politicians to run them.....
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>> They were set up AFAIK to de-politicise all this essential public interest stuff
>>
>> And then appointed ex Labour politicians to run them.....
The path from ex Govt fron bench to Chair of 'non political' Quango is a well trodden one. Lord Newton of Braintree for example lost his seat in 2007. He was subsequently a quango Chair from 99 to 2009 and featured in other inquiries including effectiveness of terrorist suspect's immigration trials and the Buncefield explosion.
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Mate of mine was saying that there are about 60 properties flooded on the Somerset levels and that media hype is making the magnitude of the event greater than it is. I know this is no comfort to those whose houses have been under water since Christmas but the event is not as great as made out.
Floods of 2007 in Hull took out that number of houses just in one street, but that was an exceptional event.
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Interesting quote Fullchat. I thought I heard a number under fifty for houses on thee levels flooded out on the radio this morning but decided I was half awake and had miss-heard. of course, even if you're not flooded being unable to leave except by boat get's wearing after 6 weeks. Presumably leccy and phone are affected too.
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Probably more houses affected near the Thames this morning then?
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>> Mate of mine was saying that there are about 60 properties flooded on the Somerset
>> levels and that media hype is making the magnitude of the event greater than it
>> is. I know this is no comfort to those whose houses have been under water
>> since Christmas but the event is not as great as made out.
>>
Yes, and our village near the River Mole has had 40 houses flooded, with all the residents forced into alternative accommodation. Not a word of it in the national media though. I guess acres of flooded fields make more dramatic copy.
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We have to remember that most of those in Somerset have been flooded since before Christmas. They have livestock and farms under water.
They are struggling to get to work, get children to school and it has gone on far too long.
It's very easy to sit in the comfort of our own homes, with the smell of a joint of pork roasting in the oven, to imagine just what it has been like for the last 7 weeks for these people.
Pat
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I agree Pat - their lives have been severely impacted for a long time. What I can't see is an easy way of removing/moving the water. Where would you pump it to if you had enough pumps? The rivers are full and over flowing. And more rain keeps coming.
The area was a 1/3 under water earlier last century so it's been worse in the last century. I blame the Romans for starting draining these flood plains! Then the Dutch in the 1700s for draining even more. See the problem predates even the last Labour government.
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So if there was currently an infinite amount of money available (or as much as any plans could spend), all the equipment and personnel needed... what do the collective think can be done apart for mostly waiting for the waters to subside?
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Would this help? It would also generate some electricity.
www.burnham-on-sea.com/news/2009/bridgwater-bay-tidal-lagoon-26-01-09.php
Last edited by: Uncle Albert on Mon 10 Feb 14 at 17:54
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The EA seems to be writing its own brief.
If the EA is in effect saying that reclaimed land should be returned to the sea, then people in a large tract of Eastern England need to watch out.
I don't like the tone of the "people with houses in flood plains should have known better" comments. A great deal of the country including some very populous areas needs to be managed in one way or another.
People have managed since the 1600s and before to live on reclaimed land, including a considerable chunk of the Netherlands and the Fens, probably with a minimal number of penpushers for most of that tiime.
Now, with modern technology, we need 11,000 staff at the EA and it's all too difficult. Maybe they should have an engineer in charge, instead of a politically driven arts English graduate.
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Meanwhile the Norfolk Broads which the EA does NOT manage does not flood - at least not badly.
The EA make decisions abut people's lives - and livelihood - with no consultation...
In effect they are a dictatorship...
A look at their accounts suggests computer modelling of floods and travel are more important than their job of protecting the environment..
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Agree Manatee, Baroness Whotsit didn't help either when she took over, being an avid twitcher.
Pat
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>> Agree Manatee, Baroness Whotsit didn't help either when she took over, being an avid twitcher.
>>
>> Pat
Pat,
Why do you describe Barbara Young as an avid twitcher?
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>> Pat,
>>
>> Why do you describe Barbara Young as an avid twitcher?
Maybe something to do with...
"Other posts she has held include chair of English Nature ...Chief Executive of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds..."
or maybe Pat was listening to R4 this morning
"Evan Davis asked Baroness Young this morning on ‘Today’ wasn’t it true that when she was at the Environment agency, a report which advised ‘More water more wildlife’ was implemented as policy. She reluctantly replied something about taking the advice of the ‘experts’"
She is currently chief exec of Diabetes UK. Expert on everything.
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>> Maybe something to do with...
>>
>> "Other posts she has held include chair of English Nature ...Chief Executive of the Royal
>> Society for the Protection of Birds..."
OK, so she has a track record as C/Ex of bodies concerned with Nature. I accept you're not going to get there if you're fond of wielding a 12 bore at grouse. OTOH neither it nor 'More Water, More Wildlife' imply you're somebody who's happy to see people lose their homes.
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>> OK, so she has a track record as C/Ex of bodies concerned with Nature. I
>> accept you're not going to get there if you're fond of wielding a 12 bore
>> at grouse. OTOH neither it nor 'More Water, More Wildlife' imply you're somebody who's happy
>> to see people lose their homes.
TBH, I'm not sure how much we can really blame these people - Smith will turn up for his board meetings to be presented with carefully prepared information and pretend options, he won't be involved in anything that will give him real insight, and most of the time he won't be anywhere near - he'll be occupied with one of his other appointments or off gladhanding.
The Chris Smiths and Baronesses passing through are probably guilty mainly of acts of omission - missing the point as much as anything. They must be at the mercy of career managers (by which I mean people whose effort goes into managing their careers, not their responsibilities) and have insufficient experience, knowledge and engagement to make sure they have the best people advising them or to get their own deep insights and understanding.
The system that puts them in place has a lot to answer for too - we see it in almost every aspect of public life, not just the EA. With every new such appointment, and the inevitable "restructures" that follow, knowledge and experience are lost, old mistakes are repeated and lessons have to be relearned.
The real experts in these organisations always know where its going wrong, they just can't do anything about it. Ask doctors and nurses in the NHS.
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>OK, so she has a track record as C/Ex of bodies concerned with Nature...
>OTOH neither it nor 'More Water, More Wildlife' imply you're somebody who's happy
>to see people lose their homes.
Give it a break Bromp. No-one has accused her of being "happy to see people lose their homes".
Her background does give a good indicator of where she would be happier spending taxpayer's cash though.
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>>No-one has accused her of being "happy to see people lose their homes".
<<
Exactly Kevin, and the reason many of my opinions remain silent!
Pat
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>> Give it a break Bromp. No-one has accused her of being "happy to see people
>> lose their homes".
Seems to be implicit in comments about 'twitchers' and reference to 'More Water, More Birds' that there was a policy favouring wildlife over people. Local MP Liddell-Grainger has been banging that drum too.
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Bromp.
Can we get one thing straight because this is getting really tiresome now.
I don't make 'implicit' comments.
If I have something to say I'll say it, if I haven't the balls to back it up then I'll just shut up and watch the thread.
I would have thought you would have realised that by now.
Pat
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Pat,
So what was the meaning of the 'twitcher' comment?
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A person appointed into a position of power but uses it primarily for her/his own agenda.
Pat
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>> OTOH neither it nor 'More Water, More Wildlife' imply you're somebody who's happy
>> to see people lose their homes.
>>
What else is going to happen to their homes when your more water policy comes to fruition?
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>> Yes, and our village near the River Mole has had 40 houses flooded, with all
>> the residents forced into alternative accommodation. Not a word of it in the national media
>> though. I guess acres of flooded fields make more dramatic copy.
The River Mole near me is very low at the moment. It seems the authorities draw the sluices at Esher Mills when the level gets too high. They did the same thing two or three weeks ago when the level was well up.
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>> I guess acres of flooded fields make more dramatic copy.
>>
During the day on both the BBC & Sky there has been very extensive views from the sky copters of the flooding along the Thames.
By extensive I mean many many minutes showing hundreds of homes in floor water.
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Fly one direction and film and then turn 180 deg and film again, looks different but twice as bad. :S
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Wonder if the home counties being flushed away will increase the alacrity of political action.
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I would put money on it if I did that sort of thing.
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Thanks to Cornelius Vermuyden we have got off very lightly in the Fen and but for him things could have been so different.
Whether it’s this which has caused a certain empathy with folks in Somerset, I don’t know but local people are doing what we can to help them.
A local Haulier has donated the transport free, a farmer has donated 3 loads of sugar beet and another, the diesel for it to be taken down to Somerset for animal feed.
The same is happening with hay and straw, and it’s not only from this part of the country.
Some farmers markets are donating a percentage of this week’s sales to the flooded farmers and livestock.
I’m proud to live in a Country where we all rally round and help each other, people we don’t know, but still care for.
I’m not proud of our leaders who spend more time arguing about whose fault it was than putting it right while still sending aid to foreign countries when it’s desperately needed at home.
It’s a disgrace, and before I get slated (as is usual) and asked what I would do to put it right, let me tell you the first thing I would have done.
I would have expected my highly salaried PR advisors to advise me to go and visit these people and make sympathetic noises and some vague promises before Christmas.
Surely someone realises the importance of being seen to be doing something/anything about the electorate when they are suffering through no fault of their own.
At the very least, an appeal for help would have been more appropriate coming from our Prime Minister or indeed any of the various agencies involved than from a Facebook appeal.
One final thought, I saw upthread some who criticised and had no sympathy for anyone buying property on a flood plain.
I feel much the same about those who have paid vastly inflated prices for a view of the Thames.
Surely they realised it had the potential to flood?
As they say in Cornwall, if you can see the sea, the sea can see you...it's true about rivers too.
Pat
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>> Thanks to Cornelius Vermuyden we have got off very lightly in the Fen and but
>> for him things could have been so different.
Can I just pop up briefly to say that Vemuyden didn't have anything to do with the Fen drainage in the first phase - he came in 20 years later (and it all went wrong after he'd done anyway, as the peat dried out, shrank, and there was more flooding than when he began...). The first plans were drawn up by John Hunt.
Just saying.
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Bet you wouldn't stand in a Fen pub and try telling that to a Fenman though:)
Pat
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A lot of the houses flooded along the Thames were obviously well prepared as they had big motor cruisers moored at the end of their gardens ready to move into.
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"A lot of the houses flooded along the Thames………"
Has Sir Terry Wogan got his feet wet yet?
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Most are all on dry docks in the marinas.
I live in Marlow and never have seen it so bad. Towns like this exist because of the river and insurance premiums reflect the position of many houses. Whilst I agree that people who buy a house on the river do take a risk, the properties have been there for many many years without problems. Also some cul de sacs further 'inland' are also suffering. Fortunately whilst many of the houses are surrounded there's very little penetration into the properties as yet and just because these properties are worth a few bob doesn't mean it's any less worrying.
What's interesting to note is the rest of the town folk are all offering rooms and accommodation for pets etc though I don't know of anyone taking them up.
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>> I live in Marlow
So do I and I have not seen it as bad or, indeed, going on for as long in the 30 years I have been there
I'm sure I remember reading/being told that a number of the bigger houses along the Thames have very little of "value" on the ground floor, obviously that does not apply to many of the ones in central Marlow or round the lock.
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The peat bed in the fens is now about 2metres below sea level and continues to shrink every year making the whole area susceptible to flooding from a violent North Sea storm and failure of the sea defences .
The beds of the ancient rivers that once drained the fens are actually now above sea level and they would actually form refuges in the event of the are being overwhelmed by the sea. Kings Lynn. Boston and Wisbech would be beneath the waves and Cambridge and Peterborough would be coastal towns. Quite scary really.
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>>>Cambridge and Peterborough would be coastal towns. Quite scary really.
I've said before but our move off the fen has only been as far as the top of what would be the new beach if that scenario was to ever play out.
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>>>Vemuyden didn't have anything to do with the Fen drainage in the first phase - he came in 20 years later (and it all went wrong after he'd done anyway, as the peat dried out, shrank, and there was more flooding than when he began...). The first plans were drawn up by John Hunt.
Indeed John Hunt was the first to draw up credible plans for fenland drainage in the first decade of the 1600s. However it is fair to say some of his schemes (which were effectively PFI funded) didn't work as planned and they had to revisit works to improve on them when re-flooding happened.
Vermuyden did base his ideas on Hunt's but they were far more complete plans and he seemed to have a greater will to drive them forward.
Neither man had an easy ride with funding problems as well as stiff local opposition in many areas. Vermuyden's works were mostly carried out nearer the mid 1600s and were subject to even greater funding issues than Hunt's. Vermuyden even had to put his works largely on hold while the English civil way played out.
One of the main reasons for large scale re-flooding after the extensive Vermuyden scheme was peat shrinking to a far greater degree than expected lowering the land meaning the pumps had a greater lift than planned. At that time pumps were wind powered of the scopp type and in truth wind power alone was never going to be sufficient or reliable enough to lift the volumes of water required to keep the fens dry. It wasn't until steam pumps were fitted in the early 1800s that the effectiveness of drainage planned by Vermuyden was largely realised. Even then it wasn't until the 1960s some of the final works planned by Vermuyden were carried out to fully realise his aims.
Interesingly Vermuyden owned land on the Somerset Levels and around the mid 1600s petititioned the king to fund a proper drainage scheme for the area but this was refused.
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>> I’m not proud of our leaders who spend more time arguing about whose fault it was than putting it right while still sending aid to foreign countries when it’s desperately needed at home.
+1
Even the celebs and pop stars aren't rallying around to help. Had it been another Country, we would have had some kind of TV charity event or pop concert by now to raise money.
Ok, it's not on the scale of a tsunami (yet), but it still involves a lot of water.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 10:22
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Raise money for what? Most of the individuals concerned will be Insured. Haven't heard of anyone without a roof over their head or money to buy food. We have an efficient emergency services to help.
Having your farmhouse flood on the Somerset levels and needing new carpets is not quite the same as having your family die of hunger in a famine.
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Anyone know how the O2 and its transport links are likely to be affected if this situation continues?
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Currently they are likely to be affected far worse by the tube strike, my daughter is going to a gig there tomorrow evening..
My understanding is that by that far down the Thames flooding is not an issue.
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Thanks... yes tube strike is a big issue. Asking as both daughters off to London middle of next week (Brits) on train/tube.
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>> Currently they are likely to be affected far worse by the tube strike, my daughter
>> is going to a gig there tomorrow evening..
>>
TSSA union suspends strike after reaching deal
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26130165
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>> Raise money for what?
Improve flood defences for starters - rather than taking it from the tax payers pocket. Someone also has to pay for the rescue services and army who are helping - yet again us.
Yes, most people will be insured, but everyone else who hasn't been affected by floods will suffer when the insurance companies raise their premiums.
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You would have flood defences and the emergency services funded by charity events?
National infrastructure needs to be funded from national taxation.
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>>You would have flood defences and the emergency services funded by charity events<<
He didn't say that CG, I think Dave and I both think it might relieve the flood defences and emergency services to deal with the Thames Valley.
Meantime, even more local Hauliers are sending food for cattle to Somerset...and you ask what funding is for?
These are farmers who have livestock to feed, a business to keep going, and family to feed. If they can't be helped we will all end up keeping them on benefits when it all goes tits upwards.
They may well be insured but I can't see Axa feeding the pigs tonight, can you?
How can you possibly object to that?
Pat
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The notion of hauliers or whoever providing and trucking in gifts of animal fodder is absolutely unobjectionable.
What raised eyebrows was the notion of celeb charity appeals for people affected and more so to raise funds for improving flood defences.
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Well said Pat. They need helping out now to tide them over. If they resort to selling animals (and probably at an age/size they would not normally) then it's a slippery slope to failed business/farm which they may never recover from. And the we as a nation will have to support them.
These farmers have an immediate problem which might only get worse.
Normal families have it tough too but anyone with insurance will likely get alternative accommodation paid for. And they might be out of their homes for sometime.
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"He didn't say that CG"
I'm sorry but think you will find he said exactly that.
He originally suggested that we we would have had some kind of TV charity event or pop concert by now to raise money. I asked what hew would raise money for and he said:
"Improve flood defences for starters - rather than taking it from the tax payers pocket. Someone also has to pay for the rescue services and army who are helping - yet again us."
Farming is a a business like any other. Farmers should have and do have contingency plans and funds for emergencies. There are few poor farmers in the Somerset levels, one of the most productive pieces of farmland in the country. I wouldn't worry too much about them having to claim benefits.
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Well now that's where you and I differ.
I'm happy to see a productive farmer remain productive. I'm also happy to see livestock fed and looked after, from the response locally, it seems I'm not the only one.
>>Farmers should have and do have contingency plans and funds for emergencies. <<
If it eases your conscience to think that then far be it from me to disillusion you!
Pat
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Well of course everyone is happy to see livestock fed and looked after and no doubt the local farming community is giving every assistance.
Don't worry about my conscience I very much doubt that any affected farmer in Somerset needs charity and indeed as far as I none of them is asking for any. There are a lot of people both in this country and abroad who need financial assistance far more than farmers and those are the charities that I will I will continue to support
I note you are curiously silent on my rebuttal of your original claim that "he didn't say that".
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Agree with CG - nobody's died - Tsunami and recent earthquakes make this pale into insignificance....whilst not a minor problem/issue for those affected, globally doesn't even register on the scale of tragedy....
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I don't like this frankly nasty "it's their own fault" attitude whether it's to people living on "flood plains", near river, or on the coast. Large areas of many towns and cities fall into those categories.
Official figures say fewer than 2,000 people are at risk from a 1 in 100 year event in Cambridge for example - I find that hard to believe, and building goes on there, increasing the risks as the run off into the Cam is increased. It will happen.
About 20 houses have been flooded here in the last week. Probably 3 of those have flooded several times in the 20 years I have lived here, but most of those affected last week haven't flooded in memory.
It is however getting noticeably worse. There is a sluice about half a mile from here that was probably attended to by local farmers, or Tring town council in the old days. Now it is seized solid. Its purpose appears to be to shunt water away from the village when it is too much for the drains to cope with, into water meadows to the south. Nobody seems now to be responsible for it.
Last week's flood here was certainly related to the very heavy rain overnight on Thursday/Friday, when water lying in the garden was within half an inch of our DPC and I was digging a sump in the garden to pump it away if need be (fortunately, the affected part of the garden is flooded by seepage rather than direct flow of water so I can pump it away without having to empty a chunk of Herts & Bucks). But it was made far worse by a "planned release" of water from a reservoir, roughly half of which goes down the canal to Aylesbury where it is culverted into the Thame, and the other goes where it will.
There are actually some quite large areas of uninhabited flood plain on the eastern side of Aylesbury that some of this water could possibly be channelled into. But no effort has been made to do that. This isn't building big expensive defences, it's about digging ditches, and maintaining and managing the infrastructure we have.
Quite incidentally, the householders affected by the release were not specifically warned about it.
It's pretty obvious from here that more could be done, but the resources seem to be misdirected. People's houses are being sacrificed for want of a faction of a percent of the budget for HS2, and a lot less than the EA has spent on a bird reserve.
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Where is this bird reserve the EA spent its money on?
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>> steart.wwt.org.uk/2012/03/construction/test-post-1-construction/
Which is what I thought. It's primarily a flood relief scheme that also creates a bird and wildlife habitat and public amenity. A very different thing from story being told to press by politico and others with axes to grind, including local MP Ian Liddell-Grainger, who should know better.
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>> A very different thing from story being told
>> to press by politico and others with axes to grind, including local MP Ian Liddell-Grainger,
>> who should know better.
Indeed. Note also, from that page
"The Government has an obligation to meet these targets and could face legal proceedings if it fails to create enough new coastal wetlands. The habitat creation at Steart will go a long way to meeting the target for the Severn Estuary."
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>> >> steart.wwt.org.uk/2012/03/construction/test-post-1-construction/
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>> Which is what I thought. It's primarily a flood relief scheme that also creates a
>> bird and wildlife habitat and public amenity. A very different thing from story being told
>> to press by politico and others with axes to grind, including local MP Ian Liddell-Grainger,
>> who should know better.
I suggest that there is spin in both directions on that one. £31m is a lot of money, about £30,000 an acre, and about 15 x what was spent last year on dredging. I hear the Dutch are offering to do the necessary dredging now that the EA has scrapped the machinery.
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I don't live that far from the River Mersey and that is particularly high nearby. Near Didsbury there are sluice gates which they are meant to open to relieve some of the risk of flooding and they constructed another set a little further down a few years ago (both either side of Fletcher Moss park). A large area will be deliberately flooded if needs be - that's the plan.
Many years ago (1998?) the river was rising and the Waterside Hotel and Leisure Club (was also known as the Galleon) in Didsbury was getting close to being flooded. They asked for the flood gates to be opened but they were not - and the hotel flooded badly. The problem of being right on the bank of a river. I'm not sure if it's flooded badly again since then. But the river looked very close to the top of the banks at the weekend.
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"I don't like this frankly nasty "it's their own fault" attitude whether it's to people living on "flood plains", near river, or on the coast. "
Yes, we have become a nation who always looks to blame somebody else, haven't we? If the state intervenes, then it is accused of being a nanny-state; if it doesn't, we say it is being reckless.
I remember a few years ago when the financial crisis hit, and those in debt blamed the banks for lending them the money. Always somebody else's fault.
Climate change has been on the agenda for years …………….
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>> Climate change has been on the agenda for years …………….
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Since the glaciers melted.
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I don't know what you are driving at Haywain, and whether you are having a go at me or agreeing. It's not about blame, it's about what can be done.
Accidents and natural disasters happen, we know that. If you mean you dislike knee-jerk blaming of somebody else when that happens, I agree with you.
Blaming other people for their own misfortunes when one is smug and dry (not a typo) is just nasty.
"I'm all right, Jack" tends to bite Jack's mate on the backside at some point.
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"I don't know what you are driving at Haywain,………"
Of course it's awful for those caught up in it all, but there seems to be an unsightly amount of blame going on at the moment. Maybe it's just what is being emphasised the media, and what politicians feel they ought to do.
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Not seen zero on here for a few days, does he not live around those areas that's flooding?
Last edited by: mazda chris on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 13:11
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>>Maybe it's just what
>> is being emphasised the media
I suppose it's saturation coverage.
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Can't blame the media. Not acting out of character: mischievous the lot of them:) Incontinent politicians bring it on themselves. Maybe the coalition is becoming more fractious, as the end is in sight?
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>> Can't blame the media. Not acting out of character: mischievous the lot of them:)
Got to laugh though. Less than a week ago the Mail was asking why Ministers and Lord Smith were not visiting Somerset. Today it's headline is a complaint about ministerial flood tourists.
You couldn't make it up.
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>> You couldn't make it up.
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Course you can. The Fail do it all the time.
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My house is less than 100 yards from the Thames. But it is on top of a 100 foot chalk escarpment. So we're safe.
The knock on effect to the traffic of bridge closures and railway cancellations though has been phenomenal today - took almost 2 hours to drive 10 miles. I'd've ridden my bike if I didn't have to transport two small children the 6 miles to their school.
Mrs A decided to can her usual commute in to Central London. A packed Waterloo line, or RailAir coaches to Heathrow and then the Heathrow Express train were the alternatives, neither too attractive. Best leave the space to essential workers.
But happily, my feet remain dry. And I'm going skiing on Saturday. Whoop whoop.
Last edited by: Alanović on Tue 11 Feb 14 at 13:39
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Incidentally, now the argument has flared again re building on flood plains: there's no doubt that this village is on a minor one. But most of the houses are sufficiently elevated that the occupants are dryfoot, despite the road outside here having been under up to 6" of water at its peak.
The problem properties are a small number, about 3 that have floors lower than the road, the surface of which is now about a foot higher than it was in pre-war photographs, and some later properties that would have been OK if they had been an extra half dozen courses of bricks higher at floor level.
The pub, one of the old ones, is a step down from the street level now and will be closed for up to 6 weeks. Highly irresponsible of somebody to put that there in the 1700s!
Three of later ones are barn conversions. Interestingly, they are the kind that were in practice demolished and rebuilt, around 1990. There's a fourth one in the same yard there that is the original 16th century building much repaired like Trigger's broom, but that is dry - they knew how to build in a flood plain then, apparently. Not all knowledge is gained at universities.
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"The pub, one of the old ones, is a step down from the street level now and will be closed for up to 6 weeks. Highly irresponsible of somebody to put that there in the 1700s!"
In the intervening 300 years, it might be possible that the carriageway has been raised. In that case, I would not blame the builders.
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I very nearly bought this place some 16 years ago, it suffered from damp then, I found, gawd knows how it's fared o'er the years.
Erm, as you can see, the property is below road level!! goo.gl/maps/3puc2
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Correct, it's one of those.
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Thames flooding - Focusless
